KaterTot3 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 Hello, i hope im doing this right. I'm the spouse. My husband (married 10 years) has been on Paxil for years. He’s a combat veteran who struggled with re integration, anger and anxiety. The VA first out him on Zoloft, a rather high dose, and he was a zombie. Finally got him to request they change it, and they put him on Paxil (I think 60mg but I could be wrong). They didn’t give him any information about side effects. He wasnt angry anymore, which was nice. But he would get shakey, irritable and anxious if he forgot to take just one dose. He slept a lot, getting him out of bed was impossible, he just *couldn’t* then came the sexual side effects. We tried everything, and I internalized his inability to finish. I would softly cry while we tried and tried. He decided it was too high of dose, and began every other day cutting his dose in half, and right now I believe he is on a half dose daily. The last two years were especially rough. He was laid off from his well paying job and unemployed for almost a year. He started another job, but it’s seasonal so he was laid off all winter. We also have children in very busy travel sports. He finally started work again, but they sent him 6 hours away. He’s been living on his own there for about a month. He just goes to work and comes home. A week after our ten ten year anniversary, out of the blue he called and asked for a divorce. He said he loves me, he just isn’t in love, he feels happy alone. He doesn’t believe his PTSD is real, believes I cause his anxiety. i was devestated. We met when we were 18, I was there through boot camp, two deployments and 3 children. He’s my world. I immediately thought it might be his medication, an extension of the inability to finish in the bedroom. I started researching and I *think* I might be correct. I told him that he should consider his meds May be partially responsible for how he feels. We do have things to work on, but I don’t think it’s ubruptly marriage ending worthy stuff. He’s so, detached. Nothing phases him, it’s like everything that happens he could take or leave. He’s always been a quiet, reserved person but this is...different... it’s made me create my own distance, if he doesn’t care about anything why would I continue including him? He said since he feels “happy” alone, that it can’t be the medication. But he did agree to taper it off, very slowly. Hes been very distant, so I can’t ask him if he has begun tapering or if he still wants to. Since he doesn’t feel the medication is actually the problem. But I guess he wouldn’t, would he? He said he still wants the union to send him back home, and he will live in the house while we figure stuff out. He agreed that if we work on our individual stuff that we might have a chance but just doesn’t feel it. I have no no idea what to do right now. I don’t know how to best support him (regardless of the outcome). I don’t know if presenting him with the research will be helpful or anger him. Leave him be and hope for the best? If he tapers will his “real” feelings, good or bad, return? I can’t let our family implode without considering this, trying every avenue to bring him back to us. Link to comment
Moderator brassmonkey Posted May 3, 2018 Moderator Share Posted May 3, 2018 Hi KaterTot-- (love the name) Welcome to SA I'm so glad you've found us. The first thing I'm going to say is "you're right", then I'm going to add that there is a lot of things going on here that are intertwined and are going to take a lot of sorting out and working on for both of you. It sounds like there is a strong relationship that was of a good footing and that is very important for getting trough this. A strong desire for success by both parties is such a huge plus. I'm going to talk in generalities for a while and will let the other mods fill you up with links to some of our information. I don't think that it is time just yet to get into details of how to taper and the like, but rather you need some information as to what is happening so you can wrap your head around things. Because DH (dear husband) is or was military with two deployments under his belt and the VA has seen fit to give him medication, then there is going to be an underlying element of PTSD to just about all of this. We are not equipped or trained to help people resolve their PTSD. But we do know ADs, their effects and how to get off of them. The 60mg dose of Paxil you mentioned is very high, but fairly common, we have a good number of members who are currently working their way off of it. Personally I was on 40mg for 18 years and was able to taper off with very few incidents. Over the course of those 18 years and the subsequent taper I experienced every one of the symptoms that you've described above and know for a fact that they can be worked through and put in the past. Trying to do this as a second party is really rough, it would be best if he could join so we can get first hand information. But let's not rush things. Keep the lines of communication open with him and lets see what can be done. BTW, this is not an overnight thing it's going to take time, patience and more time. But in the end it is worth the effort. Brassmonkey 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment
KaterTot3 Posted May 3, 2018 Author Share Posted May 3, 2018 Thank you ❤️ I have a whole box of love letters from him attesting that at one point we were a pretty darn solid couple. He’s my best friend, we met at 18 and are 30 now. I know it will take time. I don’t think he will join, he’s barely conceding to that the medication may be part of the problem, barely willing to work on this instead of just filing ASAP. I’m thankful he’s at least a little bit willing and to consider we might be salvageable. And I am currently working on getting him and us into some sort of therapy both for our issues, and his PTSD. I don’t think he should be totally off meds without that kind of support. It’s a process though, and hopefully he doesn’t change his mind while he’s off in the middle of nowhere alone. I never felt the medication helped the core symptoms symptoms of his PTSD . It did help immensely with his anger and situational anxiety. To me the side effects are just devastatingly not worth it. I wish they would have provided therapy, peer counseling, anything before jumping to meds. I am so scared that by the time he does taper, that it will be too late. He’s totally in control of how long this process takes, how long we remain simply separated vs divorced. He knows I’m here, but his communication has been minimal st best, and felt forced. I and he kids are driving up to him this weekend, he asked us to come so that’s something. I don’t know what to say or do for him at this point, and I am so appreciative of this site, the knowledge and help. Link to comment
KaterTot3 Posted May 3, 2018 Author Share Posted May 3, 2018 Im basically just journaling right now, need to vent instead of going around in circles in my head. This situation is physically painful. I’m so anxious about seeing him this weekend. I don’t even want to bring anything up, I don’t want to hurt anymore and I don’t want him to be so cold, rational and indifferent. I don’t want to plead, or beg. But at the same time, I need him to know how possible it is that Paxil is potentialy contributing to this life altering decision. That I don’t want to finalize anything until he’s off it and starting to be his old self again. Then we can decide if this is something we can work on, or if he truly wants it over with. Hes just so detached right now. I don’t see anyway of getting through to him. I’m not sure what I should be doing or saying to him to help him see. And how long to wait. Months? Years? I feel like I could wsit forever burn csn his children? They are 4, 6, 9. They don’t understand. Will they ever? The feeling of warching your person just consciously stay away out out of your life is soul crushing. Ironically my close friends are concerned about how upset i am and suggested anti depressants 🤦🏼♀️ Link to comment
Moderator brassmonkey Posted May 3, 2018 Moderator Share Posted May 3, 2018 This whole thing is quite an learning experience so there is no pressure to do anything on our end. There is an entire forum devoted to relationships that might be helpful to read through. Getting him to want to do something about the situation is going to be the tough part. It's similar to getting off of alcohol, the person has to want to do it before any progress can be made. The problem with psych drugs is that they work by suppressing our emotions, essentially making us feel nothing about anything. Some people call it "zombified" while others refer to it by the more medical term "anhedonia". It's not that the emotions aren't there it's just that they are locked away deep inside and can't be accessed. The higher the dose the harder the lid is kept on things. Over time if the dose id decreased a persons emotions slowly start to come back. Little glimpses at first and the more and more as the dose is decreased. Clinically there is no reason for a person to be taking 60mg of Paxil. According to the biochemestry 20mg is the optimum dose. Paxil works by shutting off the serotonin receptors through out the body. This increases the amount of serotonin and "makes us feel better". At 20mg about 85% of the receptors have been shut off. When you increase the does to 60mg that moves up to about 93%. So you don't get a whole lot of change for tripling the dose. But you do get a lot more emotional blunting and associated side effects. The big thing is you can't just stop taking 60mg and drop directly to 20mg. Because of the receptors being shut off the body makes a whole lot of physical changes to compensate for the presence of the drug. These changes require the presence of the drug to and if the drug is removed the body goes craze trying to readjust itself. Getting him to agree to slowly reducing his dose (we'll go into that later) and taking the time to do it correctly will be the first step in getting him back. Making any major life decisions during that time is not a good idea because the drugs have too much influence and the emotions are so suppressed. Best of luck with your visit this weekend. Brassmonkey 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment
KaterTot3 Posted May 3, 2018 Author Share Posted May 3, 2018 Thank you so much for the explanations, it’s hard to wrap my head around. He did already cut his dose in half, he just cuts his pills and I’m fsirly certain he is still doing that. Ive been reading through the relationship forum and it’s been immensely helpful, if a little daunting. Im hopeful that he originally agreed to going off the meds, and counseling and a small part of him wants to work on this, if only for our kids. Thankmyou for the supoort. I will update how this weekend goes. Link to comment
Moderator brassmonkey Posted May 3, 2018 Moderator Share Posted May 3, 2018 "He did already cut his dose in half, he just cuts his pills and I’m fsirly certain he is still doing that. " You need to make sure about this. An abrupt cut of 50% will cause all sorts of problems. He will probably say that he is feeling much better because of it, but that will only last a short time. Some times it can only take a few weeks but most often it takes about three months and then the person crashes big time. That crash takes many months to sort out and usually leaves a person very sensitive to any further changes in their dose or to most other medication. If you could get dates and dose information it would be very helpful. Please let us know what you find out. 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment
KaterTot3 Posted May 3, 2018 Author Share Posted May 3, 2018 It was about 8-12 months ago he cut the dose. He wanted to try and minimize the sexual side effects. He started by taking a half dose 1x a week for a month then 2x a week for a few weeks and the. To the 1/2 dose daily..so he’s been on the half dose for probably 6 months. I know a few times he didn’t want to cut a pill so he would take a whole one. The VA wouldn’t lower his dose for him. He did feel better and was even laughing for awhile on the half dose. And then this. Ill try try to get dosage information from him, but he isn’t talking to me right now. I csnt thsnk you enoughfor your help and understsnding Link to comment
Moderator brassmonkey Posted May 4, 2018 Moderator Share Posted May 4, 2018 You're very welcome. Helping others has been a big part of my getting through this myself, and I enjoy it. It would be very helpful if you could build up a timeline as you get the information. Dates, doses, symptom changes if you can remember them. It helps build a picture of what is going on. From your post is sounds like he started on 60mg and the worked his way down to 30mg and has been here for about six months. At first he was feeling okay but now is having some problems with it. In a way this s a good thing, except for the feeling bad. Doing our recommended taper he would have decreased from 60mg to 30mg in about six months anyway. But the way he did it is what's causing the problems. Large cuts done in that manner cause the background changes to build up instead of resolve, then they cause a crash many months later. The best thing right now would be to hold at this dose until the symptoms stabilize, which could take several months. Once he's stable he should go back to feeling a bit better. It can be "frustrating" (pun intended) while his dose is still high, but the delaying action should decrease along with the dose, also as he starts to feel better and his emotions start to return he should start to "feel better". As I mentioned above this won't happen over night, but will take a lot of time, but it will happen. It's no problems tapering using larger pills, in fact it's usually a lot easier than trying to talk the doctors into prescribing smaller and smaller pills. It's also good to build a backlog of pills just in case the doctors start changing their minds and want him to quit CT. It's a way of taking and maintaining control for yourself. 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment
KaterTot3 Posted May 4, 2018 Author Share Posted May 4, 2018 So the way he is feeling now, the sudden changes in caring about people and wanting to leave, being apathetic are sort of a residual from lowering the dose in correctly, too drastically? Thats good to know. I just need to talk him i to not making sny any major changes right now while he stabilized and we work on slowly lowering his dose. Im hopefully going to give him this information this weekend and see if he’s receptive. Link to comment
KaterTot3 Posted May 5, 2018 Author Share Posted May 5, 2018 Looks like he actually dropped from 60mg to40mg after the 60mg ran out. So that would mean his been on 20 for awhile since he’s cutting them in half. He’s so emotionless and distant. He’s always been stoic, but he’s ignoring my existence at this point. I dont even know how to tell him how SSRIs effect love. looks like this marriage will be another victim of ssri’s Link to comment
Moderator brassmonkey Posted May 5, 2018 Moderator Share Posted May 5, 2018 All the strange things he's feeling right now are a combination of the side effects of the very high dose and the withdrawal symptoms of the too rapid taper. Believe me, he has some strange things going on in his head right now, which is a large part of why he is so withdrawn. It comes down to a matter of personal survival, he has to pull back in order to maintain some semblance of control. But, don't write the marriage off right yet. Yes, the drop from 60mg to 20mg is huge but it will work its way out. We have a number of members here who actually CTed from 60mg and 80mg of paxil and are well on their way to recovery. Granted it is taking a very long time, but it is happening. A drop from 60mg to 20mg isn't nearly as bad, but it will take a long time to stabilize before any more reductions can be attempted. Things could possible get worse before they get better on the symptom front. If things get too bad a very small updose of no more than 5mg should ease the symptoms. I want to discuss it with the other mods as to whether a small updose would be a good thing right now, just to give some relief and better control of things. I keep saying that it's going to take a long time for things to start to clear up. It's just a generality because each person reacts so differently to their changes. I would be remiss if I didn't make things a bit clearer. From other members experiences I would say that he is looking at a year to 18 months before things start to stabilize, possibly longer. I think you need to know this so you can pace yourself better. When you get a chance start looking through the Tapering and the Symptoms and Self Care forums, there is a lot of information there to help you understand what is going on. 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment
KaterTot3 Posted May 5, 2018 Author Share Posted May 5, 2018 Thank you, that timeline is helpful. Ive been sharing with him your advice and will let him know. Im hopeful we’re on the long road back to our lives. Link to comment
KaterTot3 Posted May 13, 2018 Author Share Posted May 13, 2018 He seems more withdrawn lately, it’s almost like he’s not there when we talk to him. He started his taper so im not sure if this is normal Link to comment
KaterTot3 Posted May 21, 2018 Author Share Posted May 21, 2018 Have a better but still vague timeline 2016 60mg Zoloft - made him a zombie for a few months. He requested a change in medication and was put on 40mg Paxil Late 2016 - self reduced to 20mg daily. 2018 - wants to be alone, stops talking to friends, asked for a divorce and says hasn’t felt love since 2016. He decided to not follow the 10% taper or brass monkey slide method. He said since when he started taking the half dose, that it wasn’t that bad he would just do that again. So he’s going from 20mg to 10mg in one day. Then says depending on how he feels he will reduce from there. Were doing couples therapy this summer, but he still very much thinks it won’t help. I’m just trying to be patient. Im Still hopeful We have a shot, but it’s hard to not think this will be another marriage lost to these meds. Link to comment
miT Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 I used to be just like him, it all makes so much sense. I had these jerks, couldn't finish, I was emotionally numb,... Either you get him to open his eyes about the meds, or you see him crash (like I did). Any way it will be a rough ride. Do you think he has the will power to suffer bad days in order to become free of drugs? If not he better doesn't taper at all. I would advice him to stop tapering for now. He's currently in withdrawal and unaware of it, which is way worse than being conscientiously in withdrawal. Took my first SSRI sipralexa/lexapro/escitalopram in 2007 for depression. In 2010 the doctor switched me to paroxetine/seroxat/paxil for anxiety. My paroxetine story from then on: 2010-15 from 10mg up to 20mg jan 2016 30mg may 2016 0mg cold turkey (don't!) dec 2016 symptoms: anxiety, tremor (could barely stand) jan 2017 reinstated at 7.5mg to taper in steps of 10% ... Dose changes from may 2017 to now: 5.0/4.7/4.4/4.0/3.7/3.5/3.3/3.1mg Link to comment
powerback Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 http://www.tbimedlegal.com/ HI KT have a read of this website ,I've only come across this site lately ,I listened to a podcast that the founder was on and he helps combat veteran's like your husband you also mention PTSD .Take care and I hope this mite help somewhat. here's a link off the site that would interest you about veterans . .http://www.tbimedlegal.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/mwaf_tbi_project_info_2017.10.07.pdf Alcohol free since February 2015 1MG diazepam 4.5MG PROZAC. Link to comment
KaterTot3 Posted May 21, 2018 Author Share Posted May 21, 2018 2 hours ago, miT said: I used to be just like him, it all makes so much sense. I had these jerks, couldn't finish, I was emotionally numb,... Either you get him to open his eyes about the meds, or you see him crash (like I did). Any way it will be a rough ride. Do you think he has the will power to suffer bad days in order to become free of drugs? If not he better doesn't taper at all. I would advice him to stop tapering for now. He's currently in withdrawal and unaware of it, which is way worse than being conscientiously in withdrawal. He does have the will power to do it. I just question who he will be once he’s off them. He wants to wait to divorce anyway, for probably a year so I have some time to be patient. I texted him, the pinned post about why tapering by 10% works and urged him to consider slowing down if the symptoms are intense Link to comment
KaterTot3 Posted May 21, 2018 Author Share Posted May 21, 2018 1 hour ago, powerback said: http://www.tbimedlegal.com/ HI KT have a read of this website ,I've only come across this site lately ,I listened to a podcast that the founder was on and he helps combat veteran's like your husband you also mention PTSD .Take care and I hope this mite help somewhat. here's a link off the site that would interest you about veterans . .http://www.tbimedlegal.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/mwaf_tbi_project_info_2017.10.07.pdf Thank you! Link to comment
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