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Rhiannon

The slowness of slow tapers

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Songbird

some ppl say the healing only starts AFTER complete free of meds. Thanks!

I think this is nonsense - your body is making adjustments and doing rebalancing work after every change in dose.  Some of this happens fairly quickly and some of it is more long-term.

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Ip51

Hey Lex,

You would not believe all the misinformation that is out there.  We are the ones who know the truth.  "We" meaning, those of us who are addicted and weaning.  Those of us on this forum.  But mostly..YOU. You are the one who knows because you are now listening to your body.  You won'd believe all the things you will hear that will be depressing and wrong but can throw you off track.  I am now so used to it, I have become untouchable.  Even my favorite doc and shrink, don't really know. When I tell them they don't argue but I know on some level they don't believe me completely.  They hold their own beliefs and what they've been told to be the truth.

 

We here, believe one person..YOU! because you know your body and mind better than anyone else, anywhere.  

I have spoken! ( - :

love from an advocate for your self healing and your body wisdom. 

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aberdeen

Just wanted to come in and say that mapleleafgirl is right...and I am living the same taper plan...i started a 20mg Paxil taper in October of 2011, and am now on 1.5mg. Its possible! I was in a terrible state when I began my taper, because of reaching tolerance wd on effexor, and then messing things up more with trying more AD's to combat the wd/poop out. I was a wreck, and gradually, over the course of the last 3 years of tapering, I have become much much better. I still get waves and rough patches, but they are completely tolerable after how they used to feel. My biggest constant symtom is anhedonia, and I hate that. I too worry about it being permanent, but I think it will eventually resolve itself, it does seem "lighter" than it used to now. Slow is definately a much better way for some of us, and my Dr doesnt need to know. I just fill my prescription and do my thing. No one ever asks me why i only fill my prescription once every 3 months,lol.

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chicken

I'm seeing a lot of folks show up here with long protracted withdrawal that show up months or a year later, even after a slow taper, resembling what Dr. Shipko was speaking of especially for those who have been on drugs 10+ years.

 

I'm beginning to think that when I get down to lower doses, say like 2mg or something, hold there for months. This would give the brain time to regrow receptors. If one held at 1 mg a year or maybe .5 mg for year do you think this could reduce or elimate that delayed onset withdrawal that can show up 9 months later.

 

I agree with Rhi about long holds but at the last doses make super long holds.

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MapleleafGirl

Mapleleaf, how are you doing after being completely off of the medication?  You did awesome!

I am doing fine..just fatigue from the not sound sleeping but other than that i am doing well:)

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LexAnger

Thank you MW! Yes, that's what I'm thinking too, to hold for longer at the current dose see if it helps. I found my symptoms are very much like what fibromyalgia is defined which can be highly related to high cortisol level. And the daily pattern of these symptoms, worst in morning, better in evening also confirms the variation patter of cortisol level during the day.

 

I'm thinking to have my cortisol tested see my assumption is right then see if if doctor for fibromyalgia can help.

 

Oh the other hand, the slow taper pretty much takes care of the typical WD symptoms such as dizziness, fatigue, insomnia, anxiety or depression. Mainly I just have the fibromyalgia symptoms plus some misc WD symptoms like hot flush etc.

 

How are you doing?

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indigo

Everytime I survive yet another withdrawal episode after a miniscule drop, (2%) I feel elated.

 One of symptoms of my withdrawal is thinking I've hit bottom, that I'll feel like this always.

because this is actually my normal state, because I'm just defective in the brain chemistry department.

Though it's the same every time,  I can never see beyond it.

Then after a time, (which I cannnot predict) I  begin to notice I feel O.K.. Everything looks different.

 Life looks pretty good in fact. Yay! I made it another step. I feel creative and happy again.

Then I reward myself with a little rest, enjoying life as a happy person before I do it again.

 

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LexAnger

My goodness, I just took a closer look at the marks on the 1ml synergies. There are 10 big marks, each for 0.1 ml and 5 marks between 2 big marks standing for 0.02 each. If it takes 3 cuts for each small mark, it will be 0.02/3 = 0.00666 ml. Also noticed 2 ml contains 0.5 mg paxil for you lp51, so it seems you are cutting by 0.00333 mg each week. I just tried to see how much I can make a 'drop', it seems the minimal amount is 0.02 mg, otherwise it won't form a big enough drop to drop off the syringe.

 

How did you do it?

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Ip51

Hmmm. Not sure but I just put the syringe just under a line for a bit, then slightly under that and so on. I gave up trying to do it scientifically. It just has to be that small so I don't get symptoms of any kind at all so I can function. I cannot live with any symptom at all. I was at the point where I either had to do this or forget about trying to withdraw and be on a drug I don't need forever because of addiction. I have heard it said that Paxil can be impossible to get off of BUT I was determined to find a way without symptoms messing up my life. Because I have MS I already have symptoms I have to live with, so couldn't do this any other way. I did try bigger drops but was like you so had to find what I could live with. Crazy! And boy am I pissed about it! But I can be pissed without symptoms! Ha ha!

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cymbaltawithdrawal5600

My goodness, I just took a closer look at the marks on the 1ml synergies. There are 10 big marks, each for 0.1 ml and 5 marks between 2 big marks standing for 0.02 each. If it takes 3 cuts for each small mark, it will be 0.02/3 = 0.00666 ml. Also noticed 2 ml contains 0.5 mg paxil for you lp51, so it seems you are cutting by 0.00333 mg each week. I just tried to see how much I can make a 'drop', it seems the minimal amount is 0.02 mg, otherwise it won't form a big enough drop to drop off the syringe.

 

How did you do it?

 

I know LP has answered but one way you can get micro drops is to attach a 'tuberculin' needle to the syringe. Those needles are usually in the 27 to 25 gauge size. You'd have to practice using water to figure out how many drops each gauge needle give you for each tenth mark on the syringe. Of course it won't work well if your med is a suspension of particles in solution or if you use milk to dilute.

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indigo

Because these micro doses are so tiny, and the drop from the last level needs to be smaller and smaller, it gets super difficult and super critical to get it right. ( and super nerve wracking). I was wondering if anyone  has diluted the liquid prozac (or whatever drug) to make these micro drops easier.

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Ip51

Because these micro doses are so tiny, and the drop from the last level needs to be smaller and smaller, it gets super difficult and super critical to get it right. ( and super nerve wracking). I was wondering if anyone has diluted the liquid prozac (or whatever drug) to make these micro drops easier.

I just kept getting smaller until I stopped having withdrawal symptoms. All on my own, no help from anyone in the medical profession. If I try, I get to be treated like a nut, so I keep it to myself and get the only support around, from right here.

 

Bottom line...it is working very well. Will be done in about 5 years

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indigo

Agreed, but no one believes me except for you all. My docs think I must be nuts, but they leave me alone, with the occasional argument. If they believe or suggest it to someone else, it is a secret because they don't want to be ridiculed. They are not allowed to suggest there might be a problem because they have been told lies by big pharma. If mentioned a lot, eventually we will reach critical mass and our voices will become stronger so that we may be able to help docs and others.

 

Until then, we have each other!

 

I keep thinking about the story "The Emporer's New Clothes": 

 An Emporer is sold a suite of clothes by the tricksters who say it is perfectly, extraordinary.

The emperor  does not admit he can't see the suit of clothes but pretends he can in case people think he's crazy.

Because he pretends to "see" the clothes, all his subjects pretend they can see them also.

Until he's parading down the street and a little boy shouts  out that the Emperor is naked. 

Then everyone else admits they can't see the clothes either. 

Everyone then starts pointing and shouting at the naked king.

The truth is out. Something like that.

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indigo

 Thank you LexAnger for links to these are excellent, intelligent articles. They helped me understand why I need to hold longer between drops. I'm so keen to be off this drug now I realize my body has developed dependency on it, that I've been dropping again as soon as WD symptoms subside. I get it now that after WD symptoms let up, the brain is still in the process of re-stabalizing to the new lower dose. It's a slow organic process in the brain that can't be hurried.

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LexAnger

Glad you found it informative, indigo!

 

One note from him Im so happy to hear is, the brain heals in the same timeframe either CT or slow taper, only that slow taper provides less WD symptoms. only thing we need to think differently is the concept of slow taper should be much slower than his suggestion of 10%.

 

You may want to check out his entire blog. Tons of sound information about the ssir.

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Rhiannon

 

That's absolutely what I've been trying to describe. Except that it's even more complicated than that. There are multiple neurotransmitter systems in the brain and they all interact; when you upregulate or downregulate one, others change and adjust too. And there are more than just neurons involved; it turns out that another kind of cell (glial cells) also have receptors. And that's still just a tiny fraction of the actual complexity involved. The brain is more complex than any machine or system that humans could possibly create. It's as complex as a rain forest.

 

And these drugs have endocrine effects as well.

 

So when you make only small changes with lots of time between, you allow all of this stuff time to adjust, reset; turn on the genes that need to be turned on to produce the proteins that need to be produced, turn off the ones that are overactivated, and give them time to produce effects; then, allow time for the stuff that's going to be affected by the stuff that has already adjusted, to adjust to the adjustments, and change more; et cetera with downstream effects as you go. All those downstream effects feed back into the original effects and more things are adjusted. It's very complex and not fast, and our brains don't have a game plan for this, because they've never before in evolution been exposed to what these drugs do. 

 

So small changes are definitely safest and I think least likely to lead to permanent disruption and more likely to allow for really deep and complete balancing and healing.

 

I think that's why the slow taper is so successful, and also why we get so much improvement as we are tapering. 

 

I don't think many doctors or psychiatrists have a very solid understanding of neurobiology. Nor of cell biology, for that matter. The cartoonish TV commercials don't help. And hardly anyone who doesn't know much about biology (as well as many people who do) can imagine or comprehend the complexity involved. I think neuroscientists probably do, but the doctors aren't talking to them.

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LexAnger

Rhi, that's why reading every single post of yours make so much sense! This article is more like a whole piece of text book while yours is addressing the specific scenarios using the whole theory and providing specific useful guidance.

 

I feel my problems are the same to that of indigo, too short of holding for each cut.

 

The whole thing is so incredibly hard to get with many aspects. Slow taper requires at least two components, small cut, and long hold.

 

Very grateful for being a pioneer on this hard to believe/find secret! You are saving many lives.

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Rhiannon

Okay, just going to say, one more good thing about the slow taper: flexibility for dealing with life. Very suddenly this past couple of weeks has become very stressful for me, and I had been cutting with the idea that other than my dental surgery it was going to be a slow month and a half. So lots of stress hormones floating around, I'm having a little trouble sleeping, but I'm sleeping at least six hours a night, and coping well so far with the stress, able to work and socialize and even get in and get my hair done. That's pretty awesome for me. If I had been cutting faster, this sudden turn of events in my life would have made me crash. And "crash" in the past, when trying to reduce psych meds, has meant "hospital," so this is not a trivial matter.

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Rhiannon

I just consider a hold as starting right after I make a cut, and lasting until I make another cut. Cut in dose that is. I make very small cuts, I do a microtaper, so a typical cut would be for example (with Valium) from 1.7 mg to 1.68 mg.

 

I decide how fast or slow to cut based on what my body is telling me (this gets easier with practice) and on what I expect is coming up in my life (if I have a lot of stressful stuff, travel, whatever, I will tend to hold or cut much less often and smaller amounts).

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LexAnger

Hi Rhi,

 

It made me sad reading your note on your thought about the credit for what you do saving lives of those in the most critical life threatening suffering without being able to get any help from anyone in the whole world. You know what, what you are doing is not a human job, rather a God miracle! The credit is in God's record and in everyones heart here. We know it, you know it, only it's not in the manner of material fashion. I always wonder how you look, who you are and what amazing wisdom you have ( I wonder this often about alto too). I hope you can remember this often and be highly spiritually satisfied with the rewarding feeling.

 

I often ask myself the same question about why God put me through this experience, and eventually convinced that im picked to spread the word to others who I can reach out, to never never touch these drugs. Quite a few ppl were saved because of my loud voice. We were picked Unfortunately to be the ones to suffer, but as a whole It will serve a meaning for this awful historical event. Your name may not be on some books, but will be memorized and credited in the history someday.

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Rhiannon

And thank you for your words above. I hardly know how to reply. I'm no saint, for sure, but I do consider this work to be connected to the essence of my spirituality. My religious beliefs are probably quite different from yours as far as how I name and conceptualize things (I don't believe in Christian theology and I do believe in reincarnation, for two), but I believe deeply that our real purpose during our time on earth is to learn and grow spiritually and the essence of that is learning to open our hearts and realize that we are not separate, we are all one, I am not special, my pain is not more special than other peoples' pain, when anyone is hurting I am hurting.

 

And before coming to this point in my life, I was already dealing with an exceptionally horrendous childhood (abuse, rape, torture) so I had had some experience finding ways to live with the reality of "having really bad things happen to you that other people don't suffer, and for no fault of your own and no good reason" which is a journey in itself. One of my therapists over the years told me, to live with it, you have to make meaning out of it, and for me the meaning that resonates most powerfully is using it to help heal not just myself, but others too.

 

And then finally, I was gifted (through no credit or effort of my own) with the kind of mind that can understand science easily and sees patterns and puts things together that other people don't necessarily connect. Plus I have taken a ton of science classes in biology and physics and chemistry. Plus I've had a lifelong interest in how patriarchal Western philosophy has put "man" on a pedestal and reduced "nature" to a mechanistic model, a simplistic, mindless, non-conscious, unimportant set of "resources" to be used, and how that deep unconscious model has really caused some egregious errors in our understanding about living systems (which are very much NOT like machines and not at all simple; nature is way smarter than humans, and we aren't separate from it).

 

That background, combined with some understanding of fractals and chaos theory, complex systems, emergent properties (I know none of this means much to most people but it's really interesting stuff if you ever want to learn more about it) has put me in a unique position to have some helpful insights. And here I am, in this time and place in my life, with my particular history. So although I would not say God chose this for me or did this to me, I do feel that the Universe has put me in a position to be a key in a lock that's holding a lot of people in a terrible prison. 

 

And given my spiritual beliefs, it's immensely satisfying to be able to use my gifts in this way.

 

I just wish I had more time. If I could make a living doing this kind of writing and teaching, I could do so much more of it.

Edited by KarenB
removed off topic link to correct forum

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Rhiannon

Indigo, the consolation for me is that at these lower doses the effect of the drug is fading. Once I got under about 2 mg of Celexa I started really getting my old personality, my social nature, and my general zest and enthusiasm for life back. That process is continuing and deepening since then.

 

Now, I'm focusing more on tapering the benzos because the AD just isn't limiting my life the way it used to, at this dose. It's gotten to the point that the withdrawal is the only thing that's a problem, the drug itself is not messing me up the way it did at higher doses. So there's no strong need to taper faster on the AD.

 

I still feel like I'm getting more cognitive impairment than I like, from the benzos and Lamictal. But as far as the AD's effects (which were so awful for me for so long) I feel like I could totally live the way I am now for the rest of my life. SO much improvement! 

 

Hopefully you will experience the same thing.

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Rhiannon

Hey Lex, did you get through your trips okay? That's a lot of variation in time zones in a short time.

 

Thinkpink, unfortunately, as Skyler says, there's no hard and fast rule. I think my longest hold since I started tapering has been four months, but as you can see, I have gone very, very slowly. I do a longer hold (three months or so) about once every year to year and a half--not really planned that way but that's about how often big life stressors seem to come along that I need to hold for, or how often I push my taper too hard and get symptomatic and need to take a longer hold to settle down.

 

I love them, though, I always feel so good after holding longer, and it lasts a couple of months into my renewed taper.

 

Some people just seem to need more time to heal and adjust between cuts. Your body is the only real expert on how you can taper. But don't worry if you find that you prefer to hold a long time between cuts.  It won't harm you, and your brain will probably thank you for it.

 

I think what Skyler means about the toxic effects is that the actual negative toxic effects of the drugs themselves become less as we get to lower doses. A lot of people come here saying "I want to get off this poison right now" and they only see either 100% or zero, not anything in between. What we've found with the slow tapers is that as you get down to lower doses, the actual problematic effects of the drugs themselves go way down with the lower doses.

 

I don't know if withdrawal will decrease as you get down to lower doses. It hasn't for me. Overall I am much more stable than at the beginning of my taper, so withdrawal is less of a problem in that way. And since the drugs themselves aren't making me so sick and crazy any longer, now that I'm at low doses, I don't feel the pressure to taper down fast like I did before. So as a result withdrawal is not disrupting my life as much as it did a few years ago. But if I were to cut a high percentage at once I would get sick. (I do make very small cuts, so I'm never dealing with massive withdrawal effects.)

 

You might consider trying smaller cuts more often. That's a tweak that often works for folks. You might find a smaller cut is less disruptive and you don't need to hold as long to recover from it.

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Rhiannon

Thank you both Skyler and Rhiannon, I really appreciate your advice on this so thank you. I think Im going to hold longer at this dose and as you suggested Rhiannon I might try a smaller drop next time and see how that goes. Thanks for explaining the toxicity thing, that makes much more sense now. I felt so strong when I started my withdrawal but I really fear each drop now. I know that mindset isnt helpful but like you say Rhi you have to work around life stressors. Ive had a lot of that over the last year and Ive had to plan drops around big events. I would much rather do this slowly and hopefully one day get off than rush the process. Must learn to listen to my body x

 

If you're getting intense enough withdrawal symptoms with 10% drops that you fear the drops, I would definitely consider more of a microtaper.  

 

With a long slow taper the idea is to make small enough cuts that the process is tolerable and not hellish ever.

 

Sometimes when I'm pushing it a bit (like right now I am doing, for example, because I have a couple of months with not a lot of stressful stuff coming up) I do feel it (I'm a bit on edge, a bit hyper perhaps, occasional moments of anxiety, sort of an overall feeling less calm than usual, and not sleeping as well as I'd like right now) but not to where it interferes with my ability to work and have a social life and take care of what I need to in life. And when I don't want to, I don't have to push it. I can hold, or I can make very tiny cuts and wait a long time between them.

 

I like a microtaper for giving lots of control over how much withdrawal you're going to have.

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RubyTuesday

firstly I must say how deeply grateful I am for this thread and that it got bumped to the top today just when I really needed to see it to slow down my Lamictal taper.

 

then, in ref to this:

It makes NO sense to me that a forced, calendar-based schedule of tapering would somehow be more adaptive and healthy than a symptom-based schedule. Bodies are living things. You don't expect a bone to heal 10% every two weeks; it heals the way it heals, depending on many factors, and you don't rebreak it if it's not healing as fast as you want it to. You don't expect a tree to grow 10% every two weeks either, or a baby. Living things are flexible and adaptable and complex and affected by many factors. 

 

I am reminded of when I was pregnant with my only child 22 years ago and I made a--I kid you not-- daily schedule for work, feeding, etc, down to the hour, which, in my ignorance, I actually believed was realistic. well, guess what, he made it turn to toast the first day.

and you know what? he turned out great. who do you think holds ME when I am quivering and crying from psych med withdrawal??? my own kid. life is strange, ain't it?

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indigo

Hi LexAnger,

By "way lighter" I mean that a few days after a micro drop I'll start

having waves of sadness and anxiety, like a dark cloud suddenly blocking

out the sun. But"way lighter" means it's not overwhelming. I am not lost to it.

I can steer out of it by reminding myself nothing has changed since I felt fine. That this is just withdrawal 

and I 'll feel better in a week or so.Take a hike with my dog or take her out kayaking and my spirits will lift. 

 Much easier than my usual drops when I'd be sobbing off and on, sure I'm a total failure and no one likes me.

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Rhiannon

I highly recommend the book Anatomy of an Epidemic. The author (Robert Whitaker) never really intended to become an activist for psychiatric reform, but he's ended up in that position due to everything he has learned while researching his books. I've met him, he's quite a sweet fellow. He has a new book out too--I don't remember the name, but it's on the Mad In America website (madinamerica.com, I think). The new book is specifically about institutional corruption in psychiatry and the pharmaceutical industry.

 

I highly recommend educating yourself about the hijinks of the pharmaceutical industry. It's way worse than most people realize. Usually the most scandalous stuff only comes out when there's a lawsuit and they are forced to reveal internal documents showing that they knew about serious problems with their drugs but covered them up. Unfortunately the FDA is pretty much dominated by industry insiders so they aren't much protection. You've got to educate yourself, really.  "Anatomy of an Epidemic" is the best place to start, I think. 

 

The website "cepuk.org" has good stuff too.

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Ip51

Back again to complain more. Withdrawal symptoms have been...no appetite, dizziness, nauseous, weak, slept great but wake up wanting to die becauseI feel so awful. Weak and nauseous mainly and can't eat but a bite or two and forced.

 

Here is what I am thinking. Will find a good place to land, maybe 6mg. And try to get my doc to give me liquid AND 5mg pills so it is cheaper. The liquid is too expensive but that is all I have used the last 2 years. Once I find a landing spot and get back to normal, I may just stay there forever. Here is why...it will take me sooooo long to withdraw I may be too old to care once down to 1-2nd. And the whole way down is making me so sick, I have to ask, is it worth it? I am an older human with MS and can't handle the symptoms anymore. I want to try to enjoy what is left so am considering getting off the withdrawal march. I have been brave and got through some awful stuff but I just can't do it anymore. Like I said, this last drop was so awful, I absolutely do not want to repeat it ever again! So this could be the end of this whole withdrawal effort. Will see, when I feel better I may rethink the whole thing and try a new approach. I am sure there are ways to go on, BUT I've had it! I am laying here so sick from withdrawal. My only wish,

That the people who hand this stuff out, STOP! It was either a mistake OR a big money maker to those who don't care. Either way, it really sucks! Oh,

I also have diarrhea and intestinal weirdness and no, I am not sick. I am in serious withdrawal. Been here before. Time to end this!

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Ip51

Oh also to LexAnger,

Answer to your questions...reinstatement has never let me down. Things get back to normal. I feel OK again. I could have stayed on forever but wanted to end feeling trapped and tricked by big pharma. They got us and tricked us and lied and didn't do the research to ensure this would never happen. I am very angry about this but if withdrawal is going to destroy my life and staying on keeps me OK then I may give up on withdrawal and write it off as another episode of medical mistakes in history that I got caught in. and yes, it is too bad but I hate suffering like this.

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indigo

I have not been online for awhile.

I've been tapering in a new way: instead of dropping 0.01 ML

 every two weeks or so, I began sliding the syringe down a hairline more often. Seems to work well.

Still get withdrawal anxiety and obsessive thinking, but not the sudden waves, anxious dread,

jarring, like stepping into a hole.

But today found the downside of hairline drops  more often.

 Though I'm tapering at same monthly rate, I realized that now

 I'm always in a state of milder withdrawal.

 And it's hard to remember it's WD,

and not normal when it's milder but all the time.

(Not slamming WD for a week or so, then recover,

then have a clear week or so feeling fine until my next drop)

Anyone else tapering this hairline way? Would love to hear your experience.

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merry

Hi Indigo,

 

I'm doing something similar: very tiny drops relatively frequently, every few days or so.   WD not too bad.  I really couldn't handle the bigger drops; my life would have to be on hold too long. 

 

If the mild withdrawal is too much, you could add some extra stabilization days between drops.  Actually my doctor was concerned when I told him about the WD symptoms; he wanted to add medication to counter these new symptoms.  That was a good motivator to go even slower and add extra days between drops. Now I try to have a least one "good day" before the next drop.

 

Do you have a measuring syringe that has smaller than 0.01 mL increments?  That's the smallest mine will go.  I'd love to be able to make smaller cuts if possible now.

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Rhiannon

Hi everybody! Sorry I've missed so much. Combination of two things: I'm spending less time on the forum as I want to put more time into my life now that I'm capable of that, and I was out of town for a while visiting my elderly father and didn't have a computer with a keyboard (I did have a tablet but I can't really type well on those).

 

lp51, How are you feeling now? Are you feeling more stable, feeling better? I really understand your concerns about whether or not to keep tapering given your age and health status. It makes sense. One thing you can always do, though, is take a nice long break from tapering for a while. If the alternative to tapering is staying on 6 mg, why not hold there for a while? You may find in six months or a year that you feel like undertaking a bit of tapering again. If I understand correctly, MS is a condition that has spells of being better and worse anyway, so maybe it's a good time to give your body a break from tapering so it can focus on other kinds of healing and stabilization. And given your concerns and your health, I think it makes perfect sense to avoid putting yourself through withdrawal symptoms.

 

If I were in your position I would probably reframe it as "I'm just going to keep taking this drug, since I'm stuck with it, but maybe let the dose drift very slowly down year after year." (Actually that's kind of how I think of mine, sometimes.) Rather than focusing on getting off the drug as a goal, focus on maximum quality of life, which means a balance between reducing the negative effects of the drug by reducing the dose itself very slowly, balanced with keeping withdrawal itself to an absolute minimum. At some point (and this may be that point now, only you can tell) you may come to a spot where the dose is low enough that the bad effects are so minimal that it's not really worth the pain to keep trying to reduce.

 

And meanwhile I would be looking at ways to make the cuts even smaller, I think. Often working with higher dilutions will do that. Since we live so close, I could come to your place and see your setup if you want and maybe offer some suggestions. (Do you still have my contact info? I don't know if my Pms are working, some people say they aren't but others manage to PM me so I don't know.)

 

You may already be doing this, I certainly don't mean to insult you. My brain is so leaky I don't remember stuff well so if we've talked about this before, I apologize.

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Rhiannon

I have not been online for awhile.

I've been tapering in a new way: instead of dropping 0.01 ML

 every two weeks or so, I began sliding the syringe down a hairline more often. Seems to work well.

Still get withdrawal anxiety and obsessive thinking, but not the sudden waves, anxious dread,

jarring, like stepping into a hole.

But today found the downside of hairline drops  more often.

 Though I'm tapering at same monthly rate, I realized that now

 I'm always in a state of milder withdrawal.

 And it's hard to remember it's WD,

and not normal when it's milder but all the time.

(Not slamming WD for a week or so, then recover,

then have a clear week or so feeling fine until my next drop)

Anyone else tapering this hairline way? Would love to hear your experience.

 

 

Hi Indigo,

 

I'm doing something similar: very tiny drops relatively frequently, every few days or so.   WD not too bad.  I really couldn't handle the bigger drops; my life would have to be on hold too long. 

 

If the mild withdrawal is too much, you could add some extra stabilization days between drops.  Actually my doctor was concerned when I told him about the WD symptoms; he wanted to add medication to counter these new symptoms.  That was a good motivator to go even slower and add extra days between drops. Now I try to have a least one "good day" before the next drop.

 

Do you have a measuring syringe that has smaller than 0.01 mL increments?  That's the smallest mine will go.  I'd love to be able to make smaller cuts if possible now.

 

Sometimes people call this kind of taper a "microtaper": smaller cuts more frequently. I've done it from time to time and it's worked well for me, with one addition: Occasional longer holds. I think the occasional longer holds are really important. Adjustment and brain healing/remodeling is a complex process. Sometimes we are going at a speed that works for some parts of the process but is too fast for some of the deeper changes that need to happen, and we get ahead of ourselves.  Occasional longer holds even when we're feeling tolerably well can, I think, allow for deeper healing, and help prevent those out-of-the-blue "where the heck did this come from?" hit-the-wall withdrawal bouts.

 

I find that at these lower doses, and probably at my age, and with what is currently a very stressful job and some stressful things going on in my life, I need those periodic long holds. From time to time due to life situations I've had to hold for months at a time and I always come out of those feeling so much better, and that better-ness lasts for a while after I start tapering again, so it's worth it. I really have come to appreciate that holds are just as important as how we cut, in the long haul process, for me anyway with my age and my very long and complex history on these drugs. 

 

As far as being able to make smaller cuts, usually the thing that makes that possible is making a more diluted version of your liquid, which is to say making a higher dilution. For example I have gone from, at the beginning, dissolving my Celexa 10 mg tablet in just 10 mL of water, to now, at under 1 mg, I am dissolving it in 40 mL of water.  Before I am finished with the Celexa I will probably have to increase my dilution even more but right now the 10 mg to 40 mL dilution is still working for me.

 

So, for example, up until recently I was dissolving one 2 mg tablet of Valium in 10 mL of water, so there was 1 mg of drug per 5 mL of drug solution. Recently I went to dissolving the same tablet in 20 mL of water so now there is 1 mg of drug in every 10 mL of solution. So now, when I drop by 0.01 on my pipette, it's only half as much of a cut as it was before.

 

I hope that makes sense. You do have to be sort of careful, don't try to cut at the same time that you go to the higher dilution, give yourself time to work out any glitches in the setup first. But this approach, for me, has been what has worked best so far. Good luck!

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indigo

I thought the hairline micro tapering was working for me. But of course even hairline drops are culmative. It seemed fine when my life was smooth, but then I had a big sudden stressor ( my very remote house was burgled) and I found I had no resilience. Fell into intense anxiety and downward spiral. Looking over my records of micro tapering 0.1 mL a month for the last six months, I see that I've been in WD distress a lot of that time. I'm tired. I need a break. I need to get my ego out of wanting to be free of this drug. So I'm thinking of going to a compound pharmacy and getting three months of Prozac capsules made up at my current dose 03.40 and taking a long hold at this level. I want to remember who I am when not in withdrawal.

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