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Micro-taper instead of 10% or 5% decreases

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Icandothis

Alto is there a thread for that? I can't seem to put my head around how you can dilute the drug and know if you are getting a certain amount of the drug? I am concerned that it would not be an exact amount of the medicine. If you don't mind could you please explain? Thank you !

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SkyBlue

Oh, you're welcome, ican!

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SkyBlue

KarenB, thank you for that link -- I've read the information there, and I still have the same question as Icandothis:

 

Alto is there a thread for that? I can't seem to put my head around how you can dilute the drug and know if you are getting a certain amount of the drug? I am concerned that it would not be an exact amount of the medicine. 

 

Icandothis, I didn't see anything specifically relating to being totally sure you're getting the amount of the drug you think you're getting, if you're diluting liquid with liquid. 

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around this, too. I hope that having liquid Paxil and my 0.5 ml syringe, I won't need to do this personally, but it seems like a really important question, especially since the accuracy required at these tiny doses seems to foster paranoia (in myself at least). How can you be sure? 

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Icandothis

Hello SkyBlue,

I am hoping like you that a .5 syringe will do the trick as you get to minute amounts but I am a think ahead type and need to have the information regardless if I need it and for the life of me do not understand how you can know what you are getting for a dose by diluting a liquid ....

As for the paranoia....you can speak for me too because I completely feel the same way :)

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SquirrellyGirl

It's very simple.  In your liquid solution, med molecules are evenly dispersed throughout the liquid.  So, in a 1 mg/ml solution, for instance, there's 1 mg evenly dispersed throughout the liquid (at least for a solution where the med is soluble and doesn't settle out, otherwise you must SHAKE WELL before measuring!).

 

Now, let's say I want a 0.5 mg/ml solution and I am working with a 1 mg/ml solution.  I could take an equal volume of another liquid (water, for instance) and add to the same volume of med solution.  So, 5 ml water to 5 ml med solution, for instance.  Total volume, 10 ml, but I still only have 5 ml  x 1.0 mg/ml which equals 5.0 mg, right?  So, divide 5 mg by 10 ml and I now have 0.5 mg/ml.  Shake well, and those 5 mg will be evenly dispersed throughout those 10 ml.

 

So, rather than get ever smaller syringes, you could do a dilution like this and still use the syringe you already have.

 

I hope this helps someone!

 

SG

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Icandothis

Thank you SquirrellyGirl

So I get what you are saying however I would greatly appreciate if you could let me know if I am on the right track...

So I evenly mix say water and the medicine but when you get down to small difficult measurable amounts do I mix a larger amount of both liquids in order to get a larger easier solution to draw from and then when I use the syringe draw out double of what I need?

Example: I mix 1ml medicine to 1ml of water

I need say .5ml of medicine.....I then draw out a total of 1.0 of the mixed solution which in fact would be equal to .5ml of medicine?

So by mixing it with say water it's allowing one to be able to draw out smaller amounts but can do so with ease because the addition of the water makes it larger thus easier to draw from?

I have been trying to take what you had written and make sense in my brain ...:)

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SquirrellyGirl

Let's start over since I'm having my own cognitive difficulties :-)  What concentration of the drug have you been making (in other words, how many mgs mixed in how much water, and the how much of that do you take?

 

SG

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SquirrellyGirl

Example: I mix 1ml medicine to 1ml of water

I need say .5ml of medicine.....I then draw out a total of 1.0 of the mixed solution which in fact would be equal to .5ml of medicine?

So by mixing it with say water it's allowing one to be able to draw out smaller amounts but can do so with ease because the addition of the water makes it larger thus easier to draw from?

I have been trying to take what you had written and make sense in my brain ... :)

In your example above, yes, that is right.  But it helps to think in terms of concentration.  How many mgs of medicine are in the 1.0 ml of your original solution?

 

There are lots of ways to get to the same place.  You could start with your stock solution and dilute from there, as above, or create a whole new stock solution that has a lower concentration.  So, if you mixed your 10 mg pill in 10 ml water to get 1.0 mg/ml before, you could now mix your 10 mg pill in 20 ml of water to get a 0.5 mg/ml solution.  Then, if you wanted to take 1 mg, you'd take 2.0 ml.  Or if you needed 0.5 mg, you'd take 1.0 ml.

 

SG

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artstychic

I'm tapering from 10mg of lexapro generic. It was way too strong for me afte me I went off gluten and my absorption changed. I'm down to 8mg of the Lupin brand. The other day I accidentally diluted another bottle I have here of the teva brand, and my anxiety is awful today and the muscle jerks I had when I was at 10mg came back. The concentration of these pills are different from brand to brand. Frustrating. I was doing ok with the taper until this.

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Icandothis

Hi

SQ I am not currently needing to dilute my medicine as I am still at a point where I am using a 1ml syringe....just thinking ahead :)

I am currently on liquid Fluoxetine.

So basically if need be when I get to that point I will combine equal parts of liquid Fluoxetine and water and then double the amount I draw from the syringe in order to get a true half amount of the medicine...I think I got it

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SquirrellyGirl

Ok, so when you are ready to do it, let's go over it again :-)

 

SG

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Meowmeoww

How do I calculate micro tapering of half of 12.5mg zoloft? I'm trying to figure out a solid plan. Thanks!

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indigo

I was looking back over my old posts. I see how little I have been able to withdraw from prozac with mico-tapering

and how much of that time I have been struggling with dark, repetitive thoughts while in withdrawal.

Seems like I'll be wasting my life to be dropping at this low pace. Today I'm considering resigning myself

to staying on a very low dose for the rest of my life. Is there a totally reliable pharmacy , proven to be exactly accurate,

where I could get  very low dose tablets or capsules? (I am currently on 3.3 mg a day).

If not, I'm considering going back up to 5mg. However the only 5 mg prozac tablets I can find online is for cats

and I'm not confident vetinary prozac would be exactly accurate. I'd be thankfull for any advice.

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blazesboylan
  • Keep notes on paper about your dosage and symptom pattern -- this is important!

 

I've said this before, but the the site https://www.patientslikeme.com/ is very useful for tracking dosages of medications, related symptoms and graphing them together. I use it myself. You can customise your profile and record the meds, supplements etc that you take. You can generate graphs that will show the levels of a particular drug and related symptoms or side-effects side by side. For it to be of any use it helps to log on daily and give all your symptoms a score.

 

I don't work for the above by the way  :)  It's just a tool that I find very useful myself. If signing up I would be careful not to use an e-mail address (you need one to sign up) that will identify you by name. Maybe create a new gmail account for this purpose. That is if you want to protect your anonymity.

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Icandothis

Indigo- when I was taking 5 mg I merely cut the 10mg pills in half and that worked just fine for me. I know that you can find a compounding pharmacy close to where you live that could potentially formulate the dose you are looking for...Hope you find peace :)

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indigo

Are 10 mg pills widely available? I thought they only made capsules of prozac.

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DC112

If your doing 1 percent cuts every week. How long does it take to get off? How long does an average micro taper take?

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flatrock

It is so super helpful to re-read this thread. Great advice and support.

 

QUESTION: How sensitive does a scale have to be to weigh pills for a micro taper??? Here's one that says "Weighs up to 100 grams in 0.01 gram increments." and then there's this one: "Weighs up to 20 grams in 0.001 gram increments" Are either of those any good?

THANKS!

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Raye

Hello,

 

Im wondering if anyone has any experience with micro tapering 1 mg (or something small like that) at a time...

I am currently on 225mg Fluvoxamine and trying to come off 5mg a time is too hard for me so I am thinking of doing a micro taper of 1 mg at a time..

 

I was wondering what the best way to approach this would be.. If I recall correctly, I think I read somewhere that it is best to reduce 1 mg a week.. (4-5mg total a month). 

Is this something that might work or is a week maybe too short I’m wondering <_<. Im willing to try anything at this point. 

----

Thank you everyone

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KarenB

Raye I moved your post to this existing thread.  Have a read through and you'll get quite a good idea of how to approach a micro-taper.  You will still need to ensure that your total reductions are 10% or less per month. 

 

I am doing a micro-taper of about 4% per month, broken up into 4 weekly reductions of 1%, and then a 3 or 4 week break.  It works very well for me. 

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KarenB

Drugrage, please read when-to-end-the-taper-and-jump-to-zero\

 

No body is being compulsive - we're taking appropriate steps to reduce the worst of the symptoms and ensure a successful taper.  It's called harm-reduction.

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scallywag

Drugrage -- People round the dose to the nearest unit their method can measure. If you have a scale that is good for hundredths of a milligram, 0.01 mg, then you round your doses to that.

 

Individuals with highly sensitized central nervous systems evaluate the balance between speed of taper and level of symptoms. Each person makes that choice for themselves. We recommend decreasing less than 5-10 10%  when larger decreases cause problems; it is not a universal suggestion.

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Raye
On July 9, 2017 at 9:18 PM, KarenB said:

Raye I moved your post to this existing thread.  Have a read through and you'll get quite a good idea of how to approach a micro-taper.  You will still need to ensure that your total reductions are 10% or less per month. 

 

I am doing a micro-taper of about 4% per month, broken up into 4 weekly reductions of 1%, and then a 3 or 4 week break.  It works very well for me. 

thank you.

I am going to try a taper of like 1 mg a week.. 

A 3-4 week break in between seems like a good idea to rest your nervous system

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flatrock

Hi Drugrage,

I'm tapering off of Klonopin and I'm doing it slowly because I took it for a very long time and because my central nervous system got super sensitive to it when a doctor messed with my dosage a year ago. The tapering can feel really bad for me. Really bad. I recently tried a 5% taper and even that was too much. So I'm going to be doing 1% to 2% from now on. I'm reducing by weight, by the way, so I do get exactly the same amount each time. And, regardless of weight, the dosage is indeed accurate per pill so when it says 25 mg it is 25 mg.

 

If you can't respect the need for some of us to do a slow micro taper, then maybe this is the wrong forum for you. At first I had some of the same reactions of you, skeptical, sarcastic. But now I get it. It might take me a year, but I'll get off of the Klonopin in the gentlest way possible for my central nervous system.

 

As far as being compulsive... Yes, there is a compulsive aspect of it. My shrink, and others, advise taking the doses at the same time and in the same way every day for the sake of your central nervous system. It matters.

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ChessieCat

We each have to do what is right for ourselves.  No two people and their circumstances are identical.  And even at different times in one person's life things aren't the same.

 

A person should not feel ashamed if they need and/or feel that they should reduce by minuscule amounts.  The goal is to either reduce or get off the drug/s and do it in such a way that we feel okay physically, mentally and emotionally.  There is no right or wrong way, only what is right for that person.

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Raye

The first time I was on Luvox I tapered off a normal dose in a matter of months. I was surprised myself when it became unbearably hard to taper off at the same rate again in 2016. I was tapering faster during the first part of my taper this year... but now with the smaller doses it gets a bit harder... I think it has todo with the occupancy of the drug in the brain and the length of time you’ve taken it. Also, being the second time I’ve on Luvox, my body is very sensitive to it.  The side effects of trying to come off 5mg were bad enough I could not function well in work. It made me realize that my goal is to to come off according to my body even if it takes a few years. Though its annoying how long it takes, I don’t mind much as its better for my nervous system and quality of life. I know I will never go on this drug ever again once i'm off thats for sure. 

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Starboy17

I've learned that given my nervous system that i have no choice but to micro-taper, when i was on 30mg  i tapered by 50% then did that again at 15mg, & then at 7.5mg and finally stopped by 50% cuts at 3.75mg. I was able to do those cuts of 50% and as difficult as it was i could just tolerate the withdrawals. However on the lower doses those bigger cuts of even 10% & 5% slammed me to the point i could hardly walk, i ached all over and it persisted until it became so intolerable  that i lost almost all functionality that i had no choice but to reinstate.  No amount of just riding it out was going to work. I have a pretty decent pain tolerance threshold, I broke my arm a couple years back and I was able to deal with the pain for 48hrs. But these powerful medications are just out of this world in that they can inflict such agonizing unbearable and just down right unimaginable suffering,  If you haven't experienced severe withdrawals then consider yourself to be BLESSED. Being a determined guy I knew i had to be strategic and do my cuts by smaller increments so i went from 3mg - 2.8mg down to 2.7mg,  & then 2.6mg but my recent cut to 2.6mg caused insurmountable withdrawal symptoms that i had to up-dose to 2.65mg. Drugrage I get that you have ocd and I'd hazard a guess that you probably have never have experienced severe withdrawals, if you had you wouldn't be making such outrageous, inflammatory and ignorant comments. Sometimes we just need to call out what is clearly patronizing and unhelpful commentary.

 

 I can tell you that  given my sensitive nervous system I have no choice but to do 1% cuts of 0.05mg/1/2ml (i stupidly put up with severe symptoms for 5weeks)  I seriously do not advise anyone do that!, its an experience I never want to repeat, and I mean NEVER!   Only after a whole week on 2.65mg did i begin to  experience some semblance of functionality.  For me coming off is extremely painful, and I've ended up in emergency on two separate occasions, (when i got impatient and cut too early) the most recent was last week.  Thankfully i was discharged on both occasions,  the only thing i gained was the realization that antidepressants are Potent little Pills and If i am to successfully get off Mirtazpine I will need to micro-taper and hold longer.  

 

 

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ChessieCat
33 minutes ago, Starboy17 said:

I've learned that given my nervous system that i have no choice but to micro-taper, when i was on 30mg  i tapered by 50% then did that again at 15mg, & then at 7.5mg and finally stopped by 50% cuts at 3.75mg. I was able to do those cuts of 50% and as difficult as it was i could just tolerate the withdrawals. However on the lower doses those bigger cuts of even 10% & 5% slammed me to the point i could hardly walk, i ached all over and it persisted until it became so intolerable  that i lost almost all functionality that i had no choice but to reinstate.

 

"I was able to do those cuts of 50%"

 

Those 50% cuts caught up with you.  You were not slammed by the 10% & 5% cuts.

 

"However on the lower doses those bigger cuts of even 10% & 5% slammed me"

 

Edited by ChessieCat

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Altostrata
On 7/18/2017 at 6:16 AM, Drugrage said:

I Think it can get compulsive if you expect it to be hell it will be hell. I am not saying tapering is wrong i am saying that i dont Think nobody should actually need to taper 0.01 of a mg. No matter the substance

 

If someone expect a 0.01 mg drop to be hell it will most likely turn out to be hell. 
I am pretty sure the one who is convinced he needs 0.01 mg dont even get the same dose everyday but as long as you Think you do.. 

 

Do the tapering, don't feel too much and please don't expect it to be totally painless, as soon as you try to see how you feel do you feel things..

 

You yourself have had some difficulty tapering, why are you so snarky about the symptoms other people say they get?

 

On 7/18/2017 at 6:43 AM, Drugrage said:

IF someone really really could feel an change in 0.01 mg of a SSRI would he/she never be able to be on a SSRI. Its not like the big pharma test the meds so you get exactly 25.00 mg when it says 25mg X

 

People who have difficulty coming off drugs may be very sensitive to the drug to begin with. Withdrawal and other drug changes also cause the nervous system to be more sensitive to the effect of drugs, supplements, even foods -- sometimes at very, very small amounts.

 

Without a lab to do very precise measurements and testing, we do the best we can in measuring doses for tapering. This seems to work not perfectly but well enough.

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0wen

Micro taper sounds like something I'll have to do when I start the taper process as I think my body is very sensitive to dosage variations of Citalopram.   There are days where I swear a 10mg dose is not actually 10mg and is actually low enough to set off elevated anxiety [for no reason at all].

 

I tested the waters a few weeks ago by reducing my dose from 10mg to 8.7mg and instantly noticed the dosage change the next day - agitation, slight random headache all day, and slight more light headed/dizzy than usual.  After returning to 10mg the next night - everything was fine until a day later when I encountered slight nausea, more diarrhea than usual, and a weird feeling in my head [not bad, but just didn't feel right] which set off a few short lived anxiety spells. 

 

I really wish my GP would've warned me about this drug other than just saying "if it makes you sick it's working" :(

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Altostrata
9 hours ago, 0wen said:

Micro taper sounds like something I'll have to do when I start the taper process as I think my body is very sensitive to dosage variations of Citalopram.   There are days where I swear a 10mg dose is not actually 10mg and is actually low enough to set off elevated anxiety [for no reason at all].

 

I tested the waters a few weeks ago by reducing my dose from 10mg to 8.7mg and instantly noticed the dosage change the next day - agitation, slight random headache all day, and slight more light headed/dizzy than usual.  After returning to 10mg the next night - everything was fine until a day later when I encountered slight nausea, more diarrhea than usual, and a weird feeling in my head [not bad, but just didn't feel right] which set off a few short lived anxiety spells. 

 

I really wish my GP would've warned me about this drug other than just saying "if it makes you sick it's working" :(

 

Hi, Owen -- please start a topic for yourself in the Introductions forum, we can start to answer your questions there.

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