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GiaK

Histamine food intolerance

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GiaK

wow, Brandy...I'm actually hearing from others like you...i still think this is a big thing for some significant percentage of us..

 

I'm still struggling to figure out what is up...I'm slowly getting personal info together for another post on the blog...I'll cut and paste a bit of it for y'all here...

 

here is a bit of unedited correspondence with someone who wanted to know more...I'm up in the middle of the night and really need to get back to bed...at some point I will, as I said, be writing more and will of course share all here:

 

you know the most astonishing thing? since I've gone low histamine? I have had to stop eating meat as meat elevates my histamine too (stopping ferments and lots of other things I was eating daily was even more important)

 

in any case I was concerned about my blood sugar as I mentioned in our last correspondence because I've been impacted with fairly serious metabolic issues due to the psych drug history....and paleo/GAPS helped me in the past and I simply had a very strong belief that I need meat too.

 

Well, the fascinating thing was that at first as I added legumes out of necessity, my blood sugar did, indeed go up...higher than I would like...I was still eating some meat...but I finally threw in the towel and stopped all animal products since it was clear they were problematic with the histamine issue (I do continue to eat ghee -- which I make at home) and lo and behold, within a few days my blood sugar dropped and stabilized...to WAY BETTER than when I was eating meat and paleo!

 

I was shocked. It now stays in a range of 75 to 95...when I was eating paleo it was about 85 - 120 and far less stable.

 

The histamine seems to increase insulin resistance. There are studies that suggest such as well.

 

I'm still in experimental mode...have lots of healing to do, so I'm not sure how this will play out...I hope to eat enough meat again to meet important nutrient requirements. We'll see.

 

I'm still learning what I can eat and I'm adding stuff that seems safe all the time as well. Also once I heal it's likely I will be able to eat, at least on occasion, some higher histamine foods once again.

 

 

So I eat lots of fresh veggies and herbs...parsley, cilantro, rosemary, thyme, oregano, bok choy, romaine lettuce, fennel, onions of all kinds, dandelion greens, mustard greens, spaghetti squash, butternut squash, sweet potatoes, sunchokes (and more)

 

fruit all I'm eating right now are apples, pomegranates and blueberries...that's it at this time

 

and then I eat a variety of legumes: lentils of all sorts, black beans, garbanzo beans...is all I've added so far...I'm really still in a strict elimination phase.

 

oh...and some nuts and seeds. Hemp, pumpkin, almonds, and cashews so far.

 

I've remained grain free.

 

oh...you asked me about symptoms too...what has improved...the most prevalent are extreme autonomic disregulation sorts of symptoms...heart palps, tachychardia, pressure and pain, issues with blood pressure, lightheadedness, dizziness ..but I've got a myriad of very extreme symptoms from the drug iatrogenesis...everything, pretty much has lightened up since I cut down on the histamine. I've been very ill for a very long time.

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alexjuice

That's good news about the blood sugar, Gia. I have blood sugar issues as well, though I've been better on that front.

 

I get exhausted with putting all the pieces together, I don't know if you do. However, I feel a certain kind of exhiliration in discovering a new piece, or realizing a better way to view to the puzzle. Most predominantly, of course, I swing between hope and hopelessness but I suppose I try to keep the longterm trendline in an upward direction. (I surehate the stepbacks, though.)

 

I imagine you and the others are somewhat like me. Sometimes a good discovery leading to a good window for someone else is all I have to feel good about. I'm not sure the histamine tolerance is a factor for me; though it could be involved in some way. Mainly though I just felt good for you. Somebody making progress!

 

I get email from Chris Kresser and I thought of you when I saw the email on histamine intolerance. I actually thought it might have been inspired by your recent discovery and it sounds like it was, which is cool.

 

Hope you keep uncovering surprises on the path of discovery!

 

Alex

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GiaK

I get exhausted with putting all the pieces together, I don't know if you do. However, I feel a certain kind of exhiliration in discovering a new piece, or realizing a better way to view to the puzzle. Most predominantly, of course, I swing between hope and hopelessness but I suppose I try to keep the longterm trendline in an upward direction. (I surehate the stepbacks, though.)

 

 

 

Uh, YES to all the above!!!

 

it's a trip figuring all this **** out and it's also a roller coaster ride

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compsports

Initially, I think I blew off the role of histamine intolerance regarding my sinus congestion issues. Well, maybe I didn't blow it off but it just seemed unclear as to what was causing what.

 

Now I am convinced this is an issue for me as I will be fine throughout the day and eat high histamine foods. Then I think my body says no more and my sinuses start clogging which is not good for getting the most out of my sleep apnea treatment.

 

Unfortunately, due to not being able to cook for various reasons, my choices are limited to alot of foods that have high histamine. But to balance that, I am going to follow GiaK's example and start trying at least to eat legumes for dinner. I am glad to hear they keep blood sugar low because I am concerned about that issue due to my apnea that hasn't been responsive to treatment.

 

I also plan to include more low histamine vegetables which is easy to do.

 

Not sure about supplements but will start with increasing vitamin C since that is cheap and low risk. I am a little leery with trying too many anti histamine supplements because I am quite sensitive to supplements in general and have gotten nasty reactions ones that were allegedly harmless.

 

This obviously will be an interesting experiment for everyone and I will be anxiously awaiting to hear people's progress.

 

CS

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GiaK

I'm not taking any supplements because I too am sensitive right now.

 

just FYI...until I totally cut out meat the legumes were raising my blood sugar...that is what was so astonishing to me...the hardcore paleo chick got a shocker with that one...the only way you can be sure about how they effect you is to buy a blood glucose meter.

 

Chris Kresser has a great info page on how to use a glucose meter:

 

How to prevent diabetes and heart disease for $16

 

http://chriskresser.com/how-to-prevent-diabetes-and-heart-disease-for-16

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compsports

I'm not taking any supplements because I too am sensitive right now.

 

just FYI...until I totally cut out meat the legumes were raising my blood sugar...that is what was so astonishing to me...the hardcore paleo chick got a shocker with that one...the only way you can be sure about how they effect you is to buy a blood glucose meter.

 

Chris Kresser has a great info page on how to use a glucose meter:

 

How to prevent diabetes and heart disease for $16

 

http://chriskresser.com/how-to-prevent-diabetes-and-heart-disease-for-16

 

Thanks, a good friend was kind to send me one she wasn't using so I will get that show on the road.

 

CS

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alexjuice

I'm not taking any supplements because I too am sensitive right now.

 

Including the Nigella Sativa you talked about? Did you get that online, I'm thinking of buying it...

 

Alex

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GiaK

that's not a supplement it's a spice/herb/food...

 

but I am not taking much of it either...it works like a drug in large doses and I don't like it...I've found it's better to lower histamine in general rather than fight histamine with anti-histamines natural or otherwise...

 

I do like it because it tastes good so I use it as an herb/spice and that is all.

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alexjuice

I went to the Whole Foods with my mom and bought some and used it in a recipe. I didn't check my blood but I felt a bit hypoglycemic afterwards. But that's not a bad thing (if a thing at all) and I enjoyed the flavor.

 

Gia, you taking any fats besides ghee? How bout coconut oil?

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GiaK

I'm reacting to ghee now...so no more...for the time being

 

I can only use small amounts of coconut oil and sesame oil right now...and I eat cashews, almonds, pumpkin seeds and hemp seeds so I'm getting fats that way too

 

from what I understand olive oil is hit and miss for people so I'm putting it off. I'm still reactive much of the time but reaction time is getting shorter and less intense...still it's a damn pain in the ass.

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compsports

[

still it's a damn pain in the ass.

That about sums it up.

 

CS

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compsports

Well, I ate black beans and an apple for dinner which opened up sinuses that were totally stuffed in spite of taking alot of vitamin C. I am going back to just taking my minimalist supplement regime in AM.

 

But the interesting factor is my apnea index was excellent even though I went to bed after eating due to exhaustion. Don't think this was a coincidence because when I have eaten high histamine foods before bedtime like peanut butter, the index was way too high and I had stuffed sinuses. They were clear this time.

 

Unfortunately, I didn't get enough sleep but that was due to bleeping mask leaks. Another post.

 

I can't thank you enough GiaK for this thread.

 

CS

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alexjuice

Hi Gia,

 

When you write about BG 85-120 are you talking fasting? I have similar bumpy blood sugar issues. Lately, this had been going much better but I recently took a step back, partially because I ate something too sugary but I really spiked out of proportion for a little taste.

 

It sounds like you are feeling better and also more able to eat the foods you'd choose if you were free from health constraints.

 

good luck,

Alex

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GiaK

I am better in many ways. significantly. but s*hi*t...it's crazy how much I can improve and still be sick as hell...

 

I still can't talk or be social...

 

and eating is hard...I don't feel like I have enough variety...I could whine and complain more but I won't.

 

I do try to concentrate on the good...my blog posts are always from that place...but I do remain frustrated and I guess the taste of doing better is making me impatient to be MUCH MORE better...

 

I know you all can imagine what I'm talking about :-)

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alexjuice

I know exactly what you are talking about. On multiple fronts.

 

Not wanting to sound like complaining.

 

Things going better making the true hell of the situation more apparent so i actually feel worse even though I am feeling better!

 

Not wanting people to misunderstand that my 'good days' are not like their good days or mine own before I got sick -- still suffering people!

 

So I think I feel a lot of what comes through in your post.

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GiaK

thank you Alex...it really helps to be heard...

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alexjuice

Yea, I know that too. I hope this recent histamine intolerance finding contributes to a rejuvenating healing that I think we are all over-deserving of at this point.

 

Best to you.

 

Alex

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Brandy

This is lengthy but I'm hoping this might contribute to this discussion and thereby help other people, and not just pertain to my somewhat unique allergy situation:

 

Although I've had (literally) lifelong allergies, they've become much worse post-paxil w/d (and continue to be despite recovery from most other w/d symptoms) and I've had an unprecedented number of new allergies (especially chemical) develop.

 

My doctors (including dermatologist) are very aware of the situation but don't know what to do about it. Because there's no almost nothing I can eat without (varying kind of) reactions, I told my doctor (integrative medicine M.D.) recently that I have to find some way to be able to eat even a slightly more varied diet to get sufficient nutrition.

 

(I've also had to use hydrocortisone cream - just tiny amounts which fortunately I'm tolerating fine - to manage urticaria that has been off the charts since last August or September. I had switched in August from cutting the white 2 mg clonazepam tablets to get my daily 0.5 mg dose, to taking the 0.5 mg tabs that contain artificial color for greater dosing accuracy. I'd also made some changes in diet around that time, which may have contributed to the problem, but my dermatologist thinks the cause or primary cause was the dye in the pills, and it won't be the first time post-paxil that I've had bad reactions to dyes. As in this case, I seem to tolerate one-time or brief exposures to artificial colors without evident problems, but apparently can't ingest even tiny amounts on a long-term regular basis.

 

(Although I switched back to using the color-free white tabs again quite some time ago, the severe urticaria persisted, but the dermatologist said that can happen by inflammation triggered by the initial severe response. That might explain other such long-term reactions I've had to other things, where it was assumed that it took so long [up to a year in some cases] due to the chemical taking that long to clear my liver.)

 

It's a problem sometimes to avoid the chemicals that affect me (or even to predict which will), but the biggest ongoing problem is food. It's off the charts. I recently cut out almost all foods, eating primarily (ironically) refined (and unbleached) white flour products, and my lingering w/d symptoms that started post-paxil (along with my now-gone zaps, whooshes, DR, etc. etc.) were minimized more and longer than in a very long time. Might be coincidence, but as I add back foods they're coming back with re-introducing them and decreasing when I then d/c the food again.

 

I saw my doctor recently to talk with him about the dermatologist visit (dermatologist said emphatically, "You have too much histamine in your body" )and most urgently what on earth to do so I can at least get sufficient nutrients. Allergies that used to be a problem pre-paxil w/d have now become my primary medical issue.

 

(Even long before I took paxil, I was unable to tolerate allergy shots - which I no longer believe are as safe as they're said to anyway, but in my case my reactions to even the first small injections were repeatedly so severe the allergist said they were life-threatening so I had to stop them, and after w/d I could no longer can use the nasal steroid sprays I was using seasonally as well as the daily antivert tablets (which were for my chronic vertigo/dysequilibrium, but which are pharmaceutically antihistamines) or any other antihistamines.)

 

My doctor suggested trying a supplement of DAO (diamine oxidase). I haven't done so yet, but I think he's on the right track. I had read about it years ago and actually got a sample at that time from a manufacturer that I never used. Aside from my aversion to its porcine source (which I accept I may have to deal with because the situation is so bad), it contains inactive ingredients of the kinds I've had reactions to in the past from enteric coatings etc.

 

The inactive ingredients were a concern my doctor voiced when he mentioned the supplements, but he didn't know what else to suggest. (No one does!)

 

I really wonder whether this extreme worsening of my allergies could be related to the fact that SSRIs have antihistamine properties. (The fact that many people's allergies got worse in w/d was discussed years ago on another group, and I did some research online after that and learned that antidepressants were originally actually discovered or derived serendipitously from antihistamines, if I'm remembering correctly. I don't know if that has ever been posted on this site, but I know I bookmarked the references if anyone wants them.)

 

I just got a phone call I have to take, but basically, my current thinking is conjecture that for some people already allergy-prone - even if that was never a known issue with them - might be worsened by some alteration in DAO production or ? from too-fast w/d. I wonder if this might even account for some of some people's more extreme or long-lasting w/d symptoms.

 

I haven't tried the DAO (still recovering from the urticaria and also this is the time of year of my severe respiratory allergy problems, at least where I'm living now [pollen etc. apparently seasonally prevalent in this area]). But I have found some interesting things online and trying to learn more.

 

I'd be very interested in any thoughts by people with more understanding of science than I have. This seems like a good introduction to what I'm finding:

 

Histamine Intolerance in Clinical Practice

 

(I also found the reference to B6 interesting. Although I'm not taking B6 individually at the present time, I am benefiting by taking just a very tiny amount of one B-complex supplement I found I tolerate best. But I've managed some other chronic health problems recently by taking therapeutic doses of B6 (pyridoxine) - even avoided surgery! - and had known for many years, long before w/d, that I seemed to need additional B6 supplementation beyond what I could get in even a good B-complex supplement, and I've needed B-complex supplements for many decades. And my mother, who also had bad allergies, had found she needed fairly high doses of B-complex supplementation even before I found that I did.)

 

I have to return that important phone call now so submitting this without looking it over. Took me weeks just to getting this down in print due to bad respiratory allergy attacks that have my head swimming like I'm drunk most of the time. Please let me know if anything I wrote sounds odd or doesn't make sense, as usual! ("Fast typists of the world, untie." lol.)

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GiaK

reading the comments on the post at Chris Kressers has been helpful to me.

 

I've tried DAO...I seemed to react to it...in fact I'm pretty much not taking supplements at all anymore...

 

but I also can eat a reasonable amount of variation in foods even with the limitations...

 

oh...I found that amaranth greens...which you can get at asian markets are anti-histamine...and they totally helped one of my reactions mellow out...

 

there is a post going up at midnight about the greens with links to where I got the info.

 

Brandy, I hope you find a way to eat more food...I worry about that for myself and you sound more restricted...I'm really sorry.

 

best to you!!

 

oh, but I am following The Low Histamine Chefs idea of eating as many anti-histamine foods as possible...and those that are really naturally low in histamine. Following her blog is very helpful...I recommend it.

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alexjuice

I came across a poster on perfecthealthdiet named Naomi who suffered from histamine intolerance and improved after a antimicrobial treatment.

 

There are many posts from her in the q and a section. And a wrap about below. I don't know if there's a takeaway from this for posters suffering from histamine intolerance but definitely wanted to pass it along.

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2012/01/around-the-web-congratulations-naomi-edition/

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Phil

Sheesh, it seems like you almost have to fast to avoid any problems with food.

 

 

Ha, funny you say that because that's practically what I'm doing right now.

I only seem to have better days when I barely eat much at all. I know it isn't good though. Makes me wonder if I have a liver problem or something.

 

Has anyone looked into thyroid issues? I've heard that there may be a link with histamine and thyroid, although there's not a lot of info.

There's a rat study here that mentions it:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3100778

 

And a post here from a psychiatrist who talks about how histamine affects the brain and thyroid etc:

 

http://www.definitivemind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54

 

Also, a discussion on a UK allergy forum:

 

http://forum.allergyuk.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1385

 

And a few more posts here:

http://www.healthboards.com/boards/thyroid-disorders/368478-allergies-masked-thyroid-condition.html

 

Just passing the info along, hope it's useful.

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GiaK

well...not that it means anything that can be generalized but I have a BIG histamine issue but my thyroid is awesomely healthy...

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jmim

this is fascinating to me - thank you for the conversation! i've been off of meds for over a year and a half, but the past six months of over-the-top stress and loss of sleep has my body freaking out. i'm flushed all the time, often itchy, exhausted and achy. and my hair is falling out! we suspected lupus, but it's been (mostly) ruled out. the latest comment from my doctor is that she thinks i'm having a histamine reaction of some sort. i've always had really bad allergies in the spring, but it seems like i'm reacting to everything lately. i used to be able to eat almost anything. as i type this, i'm scratching at a spot under my chin that won't stop itching! probably from the apple i had this morning. but looking at the low-histamine diet scares me - i'm a terrible cook and my fiance is 3000 miles away for the next few months. he usually cooks really clean food for me. i need to try to get a handle on this but man, most of the food i usually eat is high histamine! i've been getting so depressed again from not feeling well most days - my skin gets red and hot, and sometimes burns when i get emotional, but also often after eating. the comment about the dyes is also interesting... my stress level is so high that my doc convinced me to try clonazepam for a night or two... did nothing for my anxiety but it did make me dizzy. ugh! i'm supposed to be working on my MFA thesis (interestingly enough, portraits of people who have taken / are taking psych medication) but i'm too tired and flushed all the time to get much done :\

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GiaK

let me offer the encouragement that if you do have a histamine issue then if you cut out the really high histamine stuff you're eating you'll feel so much better that that will carry you through the learning curve...and that is all it is...a learning curve...

 

I'm still learning...but it's so clearly important to my well-being that it's not hard to stick to learning it...

 

GOOD LUCK!

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jmim

thank you gia! it's frightening when traditional medicine doesn't have the answers... i'm trying very hard to stay centered and take care of myself - it's hard when you're exhausted and have a tomato-face, though :)

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GiaK

I'm still fiddling around with it but I'm finding Nigella Sativa cold-pressed oil much more helpful than the seeds (though I really like cooking with the seeds...I like the flavor and it's a nice way to add a bit of it into my diet on a regular basis)

 

 

I need to rotate stuff that helps control severe histamine symptoms because everthing otherwise eventually goes south on me...so what I'm rotating these days in the natural anti-histamine department are:

 

Pine Bark

 

Quercetin with vitamin C

 

and Nigella sativa Oil...

 

on good days I'll take nothing but that doesn't happen often...everything, though, in the symptoms department is lightening up slowly in any case.

 

anyway the three above substances help me sleep too as they quiet all the chaos at any given moment...I try to only take it at bedtime, but when I have flares I can take one of them every two to three hours...

 

and like I said, I rotate so that I'm not taking the same thing all the time...okay...just sharing.

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alexjuice

I'm glad you are sharing. Weird coincidence, I was reading up on nigella sativa, looking up how to make oil from my seeds yesterday. Those seeds have quite a reputation! Holy moley!

 

Gia, do you think it's possible you're reacting to the antimicrobial properties of the seed? I've thought generally that the glutamatergic disruption inherent in w/d syndrome probably affects immune function since glutamine and immunity and interwoven. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=glutamate+immune

 

It might be worth it to get a stool microbial analysis...

 

Alex

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GiaK

I've had stools analyzed at the onset of this adventure...and no I really don't think it's microbial...all these things feel similar in my body and I'm fairly certain they're all lowering histamine absorption...

 

that said, I do think nigella sativa might be calming for lots of folks whether they have histamine issues or not...

 

they potentiate opiates and do have a bit of a buzz...but don't appear addictive or anything...and just to be clear, I don't tolerate opiates at all, so they're really not like opiates...they just potentiate them

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GiaK

oh, I was thrilled to see that nigella sativa also increases glutathione and given I can't eat whey protein nor can I take NAC this was exciting...I'm low on glutathione...

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alexjuice

It sounds like the nigella sativa might be promising for many of us. Where do you get the oil? I've only seen it online.

 

I think if anyone is in tune with their body it is you, Gia. I've learned quite a lot about HOW to listen to my body. You guys in the psych recovery community have been the most helpful in this regard. I wish I had understood myself when I was younger (don't we all)... I used to be very closedoff to alternative treatments, religion, spirituality and so on and so forth. I thought all of that was hocus pocus. But I've done a 180. I've realized so many ancient and nourishing practices are not simplistic or backwards but rooted in centuries of human wisdom... And the doctor model which I put 100% of my faith behind, I've done a 180 on that too.

 

I know it's a cliche. And i know it's so cliche it's too cliche to even say. Still I'll say it, "If I only knew then what I know know..."

 

Ending the sidenote... I have used the nigella seeds as a spice but at a good dose (1/2 teaspoon in a bowl of chicken/rice soup) and I don't think I've experienced any opiated like states of mind. Have you experienced any issues with regularity while taking the seeds/oil? I've some bowel issues at the moment, not that I think are caused by eating the seed, but just wondering if you've experienced an effect in that department on the oil/

 

Alex

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GiaK

the seeds have never given me any sort of buzz, no...the oil is much more potent...and I'm also hyper sensitive...people take up to 3 tbls a day...one tsp is enough to give me what I'm calling the buzz...it's likely even half a tsp would actually...I started with a tsp.

 

I do get the oil online...I think I got it on Amazon...

 

this was the brand http://www.amazon.com/Amazing-Herbs-Black-Seed-Cold-Pressed/dp/B0009EYIQ4/ref=sr_1_1?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1369000014&sr=1-1&keywords=black+seed+oil

 

it comes in several sizes...I started small and if I find I'm using a lot I'll get bigger...it's less expensive to buy bigger bottles...it keeps quite a long time and you can refrigerate it for even longer storage.

 

and yeah, I too didn't embrace natural alternatives though I was always somewhat open to them I didn't believe they were powerful enough etc

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Iggy131313

hi gia, is the pine bark a suppliment? where do you get it from? and you have had no bad reaction to the Quercetin? what is it and where do you get that one also?

 

have you found that by rotating these that they have not gone south on you? and have you found that some are better than others? how about holy basil seeds have you tried those?

 

Im so glad this diet is helping you, Im hoping it will help me also. xx

 

anythings worth a try though

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GiaK

at the time I wrote the last comment above I was tolerating Quercetin and Pine Bark and Nigella Sativa...now all of it makes me feel like I'm tripping and I can't take any of it...I was careful to not take it daily as well...

 

my body is very strange though...most people who have histamine intolerance can take them all...

 

the quercetin is this one...special to be hypoallergenic: http://www.vitacost.com/twinlab-quercetin-plus-c

 

and the pine bark is http://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-pycnogenol-50-mg-90-capsules

 

both very good products I can no longer take...

 

I'm back to tolerating virtually nothing.

 

I do take topical magnesium...

 

and now I'm taking bentonite clay as well. 

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Iggy131313

gosh im sorry to hear that gia, that must be very dissapointing, you say most people with histamine intolerance can tolerate, but as iam in severe withdrawal I would liken myself much more to you than to ''normal'' histamine intolerant folk...

 

are you still having the seeds on food? Im not sure how to take them...should I cook them and add to a salad?

 

I posted about the clay and bathing in it rather than taking it in the discussion about it...

 

do you intend to go back to the others later on? I wonder why these things poop out, very confusing!

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