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Jemima

Do psych drugs stay In body fat for years? Released by exercise?

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While not wanting to highjack Marmite's thread, I did want to find out more about whether or not this is true:

 

I'm glad that you will be consulting with David Healy and believe he will best explain that the half-life of these drugs is irrelevant. The drug remains in and is slowly released from tissue and fat for years, I believe. Nobody really knows the many complex ways these drugs impact the entire body.

I wondered about the storage of ADs in body fat too. I wondered if weight loss speeded up withdrawal from the drug in my case, as I lost a lot of weight quickly with the anxiety of being in hospital.

 

My cardiologist said that when they worked on cadavers in med. school they found ADs stored all over the body many years after the patient had stopped ingesting them. Makes you wonder doesn't it?

I hope that all this means is that minute amounts are excreted until the drug is completely gone. The idea that I'll have antidepressants in my body for years to come is terrifying.

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YES! I've been wondering about this as well. Great to see a topic about it.

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Maybe this explains why withdrawal can be delayed? The drug stored in fat can keep you propped up for a while, but once it started to fall withdrawal kicks in?

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When I was sorting through some info for Dr Healy the other day, I came across a download I had printed off, probably 5 years ago by Pam Armstrong called "Back to Life - The Great Escape from Transquiliser Addiction, SSRIs and Sleeping "Z drug" Pills". I referred to it when I was withdrawing.

 

Pam works (worked) for the Council for Information on Transquilisers and Anti-depressants (CITA)....I had never heard of them at the time, but she spoke to me and was working in Liverpool in the UK at the time in support groups, spreading the word about slow withdrawl and addiction. She is a nurse, teacher and pyschology graduate and produced the download based on information provide by other "informed" professionals at the time who she names as : David Healy, Shirley Trickett, Charles Medawar, Dr Peter Breggin and Dr. Ann Blake Tracy.

 

In the download, she also states that anti-depressants have been found in bodies long after ingestion ceased.

 

I don't know if they remain active or whether they are stored somehow...

 

I no longer have the web address for the download, but reading the advice again I wish I had followed it more closely.

 

x

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Maybe this explains why withdrawal can be delayed? The drug stored in fat can keep you propped up for a while, but once it started to fall withdrawal kicks in?

 

The storage in fat theory, is a guess...no evidence from anywhere. I just wondered about it at the time.

I wish I could remember whether my cardiologists told me that the drug was stored all over the body or specifically around organs.

It was so long ago.

x

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There have been postmortem studies done showing distribution of drug in tissue, blood, bile, etc. I'm not certain how long drugs stay after discontinuing and I suspect it is different for every person depending on many factors. I think this would hold true for most any drugs or environmental toxins that are fat-soluble and stored in tissue.

 

This is probably why various methods of detoxing exacerbate withdrawal symptoms.

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I don't choose to think that this is significant, true or not.

 

Mercury is held in the body for years and so are many other undesirables. So far as I understand these foreign substances are, sequestered and if undisturbed, held in moreorless in a harmless stasis.

 

We probably all have freon in our bodies from our car air conditioners too. I'm not losing sleep over it. Actually, it's 11am and I haven;t got any sleep yet ... so maybe?

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I don't choose to think that this is significant, true or not.

 

Mercury is held in the body for years and so are many other undesirables. So far as I understand these foreign substances are, sequestered and if undisturbed, held in moreorless in a harmless stasis.

 

We probably all have freon in our bodies from our car air conditioners too. I'm not losing sleep over it. Actually, it's 11am and I haven;t got any sleep yet ... so maybe?

 

Exactly.

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Don't worry about drugs stored in body fat. This probably isn't any more true for antidepressants than any other drug, and has nothing to do with your symptoms.

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When I started researching alkaline diets I learned that the body will store acid waste in fat stores to prevent the acid from causing the body's blood pH to go too acidic. The body's blood has a very narrow range between 7.35 and 7.45 on the pH scale that it has to maintain ... otherwise we die.

 

The body protects itself from excessive acid by storing acid waste in fat stores where it cannot affect the blood's pH. The system can only release this acid waste when enough alkalizing substances are present in the body to buffer the acid as it is excreted from the body through respiration, sweat or urine. When a body is in a state of acidosis (excess acid state) it use minerals to neutralize acid in order to remove it from the system ... it takes calcium from the body's stores (bones) in order to eliminate excess acid.

 

The way I dealt with this was to eat an 80% alkaline diet for 6 months and I dropped about 5 pounds of additional fat. I maintain a 65% alkaline diet now that I have gotten a lot of the stored acid waste out of my system.

 

I could give you the reference for this information, but unfortunately I don't remember which of 4 books I read this in - could have been The Ultimate pH Solution, Michelle Schoffro Cook, DNM, DAc; The Acid Alkaline Food Guide, Dr. Susan E. Brown & Larry Trivieri, Jr.; The pH Balance Diet, Bhart Vyas & Suzanne Le Quesne or The Acid-Alkaline Diet for Optimum Health, Christopher Vasey, N.D.

 

Why is this relevant to this discussion? Because I think we can infer from this that if antidepressants are stored in fat cells they are not affecting the system while they are stored in fat. The body stores toxin in fat to prevent damage to the system. I do think that when we start to release this fat it is possible for the toxins to have an effect, but it is probably short-lived because the body only releases the toxins when it has a way to eliminate them from the body.

 

In conclusion, I believe ADs are stored in fat cells and they have no affect there. I think that when we lose weight there may be a slight affect as the toxins are eliminated from the system, but I don't think that this really contributes to withdrawal symptoms.

 

FWIW, this is my quasi-scientific opinion.

 

Karma

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Very Interesting:
 
http://www.seroxatusergroup.org.uk/Dangers%20of%20Tapering%20off%20an%20SSRI.pdf
 
Protracted Withdrawal is the time period that begins once one has finished tapering off an SSRI - they are no longer ingesting the drug but it is stored in the body’s fat cells as SSRIs are fat- soluble drugs. We have no way of knowing when this condition ends because many are known to experience "drug pockets" where the drug which has been stored in the body, releases - due to exercise, weight loss, sweating, or a number of other reasons including the body's own nature to expel that which is unnatural and toxic. This appears to be a reason that these drugs can be so difficult to taper off.
 
Additionally, there is seemingly no research available on the subject of SSRIs being fat-soluble drugs, [see right for description]. It seems that psychotropic drugs are fat soluble in order for them to pass through the blood-brain barrier.
 
What we know is that most street-drugs [ie: heroin and cocaine] are water-soluble. Hence, one can go in to a Detox Center and be taken off these drugs in a matter of a few days. This is NOT possible with an SSRI because the drug stores in the fat and takes months to release out of the body.
There is also speculation that SSRIs disable the body from being able to work properly and need time to heal. Since there is no research on this, we can only suggest that SSRIs "affect multiple systems throughout the body. The body has to reawaken functions that it had not used for a long time, and also it has to tone down certain functions that had been increased to compensate for the medication's dampening effects. All of these adjustments have their own timeline, can be "protracted," and are connected to the progress of withdrawal over time."[3]
Protracted Withdrawal can be extremely dangerous if one is not properly prepared, often leading the one in withdrawal to have to go back on the SSRI to stabilize and typically, it is at a higher dose than before coming off the drug.
This is the reason that NOT ONE facility exists in this country [or any other countries] for one to go and detox off of an SSRI. It would take too long. There would be no 28-day stay... 28-days
would be just the beginning for a taper off an SSRI...
[3] Dr. Alice W. Lee-Bloem, MD, www.holisticpsychiatrist.com

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This argument makes no sense at all. Withdrawal syndrome comes from the ABSENCE of a drug, not its presence.

 

If a drug is stored in fat, it would slowly be metabolized, which, like tapering, would cushion withdrawal, not initiate it.

 

Fat solubility or water solubility of the drug is not relevant to withdrawal syndrome.

 

This is yet another bit of misinformation about withdrawal syndrome that seems to get recirculated constantly. While Dr. Lee-Bloem may be commended for making an effort to understand withdrawal syndrome, her reasoning regarding this is questionable.

 

She is correct, however, in that the effects of the drugs tend to dysregulate neurological and endocrinological processes -- and this is highly relevant to withdrawal syndrome.

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This PDF thats attached is from the Trafford Tranquilizer Group.  There's one statement they made which made me curious.  They said SSRIs are not only stored in the brain, but in fat cells.  Here's another quote about while tapering from the PDF that has me curious:

 

"You need to learn to pace yourself because every time you do too much
work, fat in the body breaks down and releases more of the drug it has been storing
into your blood stream. The day after, you will suffer an unplanned reduction."

 

 

Anyone hear of this?

 

SSRI-Withdrawal.pdf

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I don't think that's true about fat...but it is true that exercising too hard can exacerbate symptoms...they're just getting a bit creative about why  ;)

 

I still get that reaction from too much exercise...and i"m more than 4 years out...nothing stored in my fat at this point! 

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It may be stored in fat but not logical for it to be released like that. I don't think we need to worry about the amount that's stored in fat.

 

I should have plenty stored in the 30 lbs I've put on, lol, but I'm not at all concerned about it being released, later. I just hope it falls off along with the fat once I'm off the Risperidone.

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toxins in general are stored in fat...and rapid weight loss actually exacerbated my symptoms when I stopped eating at one point...it just doesn't work as simply as they suggest. 

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I've heard of people doing intensive sauna detox re-experiencing drug effects from meds or rec drugs taken years before. Also Lyme patients frquenently talk about antibiotic herx effects after doing big detoxes like liver flushes, and of course after taking lots of abx. I don't know that this effect, toxins in fat, is an explanation for the symptoms that are experienced on this board but the principle is pretty widely reported. The scientologists might say something about this too, I don'r know what they say. While I don't take thier theology seriously, they are more experienced than anyone else in the world practically in intense sauna detox, see the 911 workers detox stories and attendant controversy.

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I don't know, but unless I see some hard data I'm not going to believe it's a robust effect--that is, the release of stored drugs from fat. For one thing, I think it's highly likely that if our bodies do store drugs in our fat cells what they're storing is the metabolites of the drug--not likely it's going to stay in there in unaltered form. I just don't think it's likely to be that simple. Overworking and overexhausting oneself does appear to be a problem in withdrawal, I'm just skeptical that's the reason.

 

I did skim the PDF though and it doesn't sound too bad. At least they're not saying anything dangerously off base, and what they're saying is more truthful and helpful than what most doctors' offices will say, so that's something. 

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I couldn't guess whether it's a metabolite of a drug or not. As I understand the idea the toxins stored would be metabolic waste as much as anything.

 

Would it need to be a metabolite to experience the effect of the drug? Because people who use the sauna treatments claim that they re-experience drugs they've abused in their lifetime. People doing heavy sauna detox can be pretty unconventional and most of the anecdotes are around LSD flashbacks.

 

I come across this quote searching for sauna detox therapy LSD:


            Supervision during a sauna therapy program is helpful. The presence of an attendant or friend close by is also most helpful if you have any type of health condition.

            Removing drugs from tissue storage may cause flashbacks or temporary drug effects, the same as when you took the drug.  If you have used LSD or other psychotropic drugs, have an attendant near by, as a few have experienced flashbacks or even full-blown LSD trips.  In addition, follow the basic safety procedures below:

 

 

I am not a believer in fat cell detox causing the withdrawal syndromes that people here are experiencing and I never heard of this group in the original post. I think it's pretty unlikely that overexertion worsening symptoms is from fat cell detox, I agree. I don't think the detox proponents think exercise induced sweating is effective as a detox anyway but that araeboic -sweating is more psyhiologically a heat valve.

 

I think though that I've seen a lot of testimony about sweating and detox generally. Again, not in regarcds to people who are sick from psychiatry.

I don't know, but unless I see some hard data I'm not going to believe it's a robust effect--that is, the release of stored drugs from fat. For one thing, I think it's highly likely that if our bodies do store drugs in our fat cells what they're storing is the metabolites of the drug--not likely it's going to stay in there in unaltered form. I just don't think it's likely to be that simple. Overworking and overexhausting oneself does appear to be a problem in withdrawal, I'm just skeptical that's the reason.

 

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Sorry, I don't know much about sauna detox or the whole detox paradigm in general. I can't understand why sauna conditions would metabolize fat stores, seems like it would do the opposite. I've heard so many claims over the years about detox that don't really make sense, so I tend to be skeptical. 

 

Sauna is excellent for helping eliminate water-soluble waste and toxins though. My exhusband used it as an adjunct when he was on kidney dialysis. And the liver does attach non-water-soluble stuff to proteins that make it soluble in water, so maybe something is happening with that, I don't know.  I doubt that complexes that large would be able to be eliminated through the skin. But I'm just speculating.

 

It's not something I've really looked into.

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I tend not to be skeptical out of self interested hope. Sauna is one of the few methods of removing ochratoxin and other mycotoxin that I can find success stories online. So I want to believe the method works so that I may be able to use it to save my quality of life in the future. So believing it can, in theorry, detox products of psychiatric drugs is appealing to me as an idea.

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Whether drugs are stored in fat or not has no bearing at all on withdrawal. If drugs are stored in fat, their slow release would assist a taper; that is, they would be gradually metabolized and excreted. Rushing them out of the body to "detox" makes absolutely no sense if you're trying to taper.

 

Some people say saunas make them feel better, calm them down, and help them sleep. This probably has nothing to do with any detoxing in a sauna, it most likely is activation of the parasympathetic nervous system.

 

HOWEVER, many people with withdrawal syndrome have heat sensitivity, so I suggest going carefully with saunas or any heat therapy.

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I have been off all medication for nearly a couple of years now.

 

Every so often I experience depression and anxiety symptoms for up to a couple of weeks, but this only happens a day or so after I haven't eaten enough or if I do sit-ups.

 

I have read that alot of drugs/antidepressants are lipophilic (stored in fat) which leads me to believe that every time I exercise or don't eat enough the fat gets burned/used and the drugs get released, causing the symptoms.

 

I can rule out diet/food as I very very rarely eat any processed food and know what to avoid (msg, aspartame, artificial colours, etc...)

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Hi techdude101,

 

Professionals advocating that theory have never provided any serious proof of this.

 

Depression and anxiety can result from a million things that have nothing to do with withdrawal.   Then again, if you tapered too quickly, you could be experiencing symptoms that may seems like they are correlated with events but aren't.

 

CS

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I don't think I tapered too quickly as I didn't experience any major withdrawal symptoms.

 

It seems too reproducible to be caused by anything else.

 

For example, if I have been stable for a couple of weeks (at least) then do about 30 sit-ups (15 + 15) the chance of symptoms re-appearing the next day are >=90%. I also notice I get the old sedated feeling, as if I had taken amitriptyline the night before.

 

When I say stable, I mean the mood is good, no anxiety and good concentration (able to study maths).

 

Over about 10 years I have been on: prozac, cymbalta, amitriptyline, cymbalta + valium, cymbalta + seroquel, mirtazapine, cymbalta + mirtazapine, cymbalta + lyrica, cymbalta + agomelatine, cymbalta + amitriptyline.

 

I stopped all medication nearly 2 years ago (2 years in october 2014).

The reason I was able to stop taking prescription medication is I changed my diet and started taking vitamins and minerals.

 

I'm curious if anyone else has experienced something similar.

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I was able to excersize yesterday after a long time, and it triggered my hypersomnia (excessive sleeping). I suspect that it's a side effect of the drugs.

 

It's exciting to find someone who's doing it with diet and vitamins-minerals, I'm doing it the same way! I will write you a PM. 

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I doubt very much that, if drugs are still stored in your tissues, the tiny amount that might be released under any circumstances would cause those symptoms.

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Dieting 'could lead to positive drug tests'

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2009/08/11/dieting-could-lead-positive-drug-tests

 

"Accumulation of drugs in tissues or body compartments can prolong drug action because the tissues release the accumulated drug as plasma drug concentration decreases. For example, thiopental is highly lipid soluble, rapidly enters the brain after a single IV injection, and has a marked and rapid anesthetic effect; the effect ends within a few minutes as the drug is redistributed to more slowly perfused fatty tissues. Thiopental is then slowly released from fat storage, maintaining subanesthetic plasma levels. These levels may become significant if doses of thiopental are repeated, causing large amounts to be stored in fat. Thus, storage in fat initially shortens the drug's effect but then prolongs it."

 

Source: http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/clinical_pharmacology/pharmacokinetics/drug_distribution_to_tissues.html

 

 

I wonder if a combination of drugs/antidepressants getting released from fat cells could have an additive effect as well.

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How exactly would the release of antidepressant residue from fat tissues cause depression or anxiety?

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Most antidepressants can/do make depression worse. Have a look at the detailed side effects.

Amitriptyline:

  • mental depression or anxiety

Source: http://www.drugs.com/sfx/amitriptyline-side-effects.html

 Duloxetine:

Completed suicide, mania, manic switching, mood swings

 

Source:http://www.drugs.com/sfx/cymbalta-side-effects.html

 

http://psychcentral.com/news/2011/12/09/some-people-feel-worse-on-antidepressants-like-cymbalta/32430.html

 

I would encourage anyone who reads this to do their own research.

Also watch out for bias.

"Drug studies financed by pharmaceutical companies frequently show positive results in favour of the sponsor."

Source: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100507092335.htm

The same applies to health or nutrition companies or websites.

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Yes, depression and anxiety can be a side effect of antidepressants at usual dosages.

 

If an antidepressant is stored in fat, how much do you think would be released by an hour of exercise? A microgram? Smaller than a microgram?

 

How much do you think is stored in your body?

 

I truly, truly do not think this is a consideration in experiencing post-discontinuation syndrome.

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As I mentioned previously, some combinations of drugs can have an additive effect.

Cymbalta + 1

Amitriptyline +1

 

Cymbalta + amitriptyline = depression and anxiety x 2

 

Additive effect of rimonabant and citalopram on extracellular serotonin levels monitored with in vivo microdialysis in rat brain

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014299913002616

 

I don't know how much actually gets stored in fat, but according to the link I posted previously "Dieting 'could lead to positive drug tests'", enough is stored to have an effect.

The scientific study also says that the stress hormone can increase the speed of release of the drug.

Exercise + stress = more antidepressants being released

 

I would like to know how much of a drug gets stored in the body. I haven't found any formulas yet.

If anyone has any information or links I would appreciate it.

 

Ideally, any argument should be backed up by research.

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First let me say: it's your body, and your life, so if your hypothesis makes sense to you, go for it, especially if it's helpful to you.

 

However, this forum has a hard-won, hard-defended reputation for sound science, and I'm protective of it, so for the sake of anyone else reading this I would like to point out that this discussion is pure speculation.  None of the citations given contain evidence that supports your hypothesis.

 

The studies on THC released from fat (the only science in the "dieting/drug tests" article) were done over a very short term, in mice, and the effect faded within days. Nothing about "years later." Even in the one human who claims to have had elevated THC after losing 8.8 pounds of fat in a very short time (not after doing 30 situps)--in his case he claimed it had been "months," and there are no direct quotes from him, and the article is just a popular news piece. And his case was not proven, it's just his claim (I haven't smoked pot in months, honest, it must be from losing all that weight! Not that he's lying, just that it's impossible to prove he's not.)

 

I'm not trying to put you down in any way. It's an intriguing line of inquiry and I'm the last person to stifle inquiry. I just know how poor science education is in the US and how vulnerable people in withdrawal are, and I want to make sure that people who read this thread understand its purely speculative nature. The subject of drugs stored in fat comes up here from time to time and it's already confusing enough to people as it is.

 

I myself would need a lot of surprising evidence to believe that significant enough quantities of active, unmetabolized pharmaceutical drugs are stored in body tissues for years after ingestion to have any kind of noticeable effect when finally released, especially from the amount of fat that would need to be burned to do 30 situps (looks like 4.8 calories per minute)--presuming you had been fasting for hours at the time and continued to fast for hours afterward, so that all the energy would have to come from stored fat.

 

(http://www.ask.com/question/how-many-calories-are-burnt-doing-situps)

 

It just doesn't sound very probable to me. Rather to the contrary. 

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I forgot to mention, if I take activated charcoal about an hour before doing sit-ups I don't experience any symptoms the next day.

There is a possibility that this is just a placebo effect.

 

Unfortunately I don't have access to full scientific articles and what I do find is usually on google scholar.

 

The THC study is the only related study I have came across so far. THC and antidepressants are fat soluble.

 

I doubt there will be many, if any studies at all about antidepressants stored in fat and released from fat. I don't think too many pharmaceutical companies would fund such a study.

 

I am open to any other hypothesis as to the cause of my symptoms.

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Rhi, thanks for your balanced view on things.

 

It is intruiging topic, indeed. are there any other ideas, what might cause those feelings after workout?

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