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Diets that may cause problems: Restriction, Ketosis, Raw, Low Carb

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Roads   
Roads

Among other benefits, studies led by an american laboratory of neurosciences found, that, among other powerful benefits, dietary restriction (caloric restriction and intermittent fasting) ENHANCE neurogenesis and neroplasticity.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12558961

 

Fasting has nothing to do with spiritual superstitions. I think it could be very useful in protracted withdrawal. I just want to help.

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Altostrata   
Altostrata

Roads, this is an experiment that was done on healthy mice.

 

What might be good for healthy animals might not be good for sick animals.

 

I would not recommend anyone, mouse or human, fast as a way to overcome the neurological damage of withdrawal syndrome. You need to give your body the fuel to rebuild.

 

Also, the enthusiastic style of this abstract makes me suspicious. These researchers are making far too many claims, typical of the over-reaching seen in studies funded by drug companies.

 

(This was published in 2003, prior to disclosure rules.)

 

Also typical of these studies is they make claims about promoting neurogenesis -- but fail to compare the degree or quality of neurogenesis to other neurogenic activities such as exercise, laughing with friends, or petting a cat.

 

J Neurochem. 2003 Feb;84(3):417-31.

Meal size and frequency affect neuronal plasticity and vulnerability to disease: cellular and molecular mechanisms.

Mattson MP, Duan W, Guo Z.

 

Source

 

Laboratory of Neurosciences, National Institute on Aging, Gerontology Research Center, Baltimore, Maryland 21224, USA.

 

Abstract

 

Although all cells in the body require energy to survive and function properly, excessive calorie intake over long time periods can compromise cell function and promote disorders such as cardiovascular disease, type-2 diabetes and cancers. Accordingly, dietary restriction (DR; either caloric restriction or intermittent fasting, with maintained vitamin and mineral intake) can extend lifespan and can increase disease resistance. Recent studies have shown that DR can have profound effects on brain function and vulnerability to injury and disease. DR can protect neurons against degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and Huntington's diseases and stroke. Moreover, DR can stimulate the production of new neurons from stem cells (neurogenesis) and can enhance synaptic plasticity, which may increase the ability of the brain to resist aging and restore function following injury. Interestingly, increasing the time interval between meals can have beneficial effects on the brain and overall health of mice that are independent of cumulative calorie intake. The beneficial effects of DR, particularly those of intermittent fasting, appear to be the result of a cellular stress response that stimulates the production of proteins that enhance neuronal plasticity and resistance to oxidative and metabolic insults; they include neurotrophic factors such as brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), protein chaperones such as heat-shock proteins, and mitochondrial uncoupling proteins. Some beneficial effects of DR can be achieved by administering hormones that suppress appetite (leptin and ciliary neurotrophic factor) or by supplementing the diet with 2-deoxy-d-glucose, which may act as a calorie restriction mimetic. The profound influences of the quantity and timing of food intake on neuronal function and vulnerability to disease have revealed novel molecular and cellular mechanisms whereby diet affects the nervous system, and are leading to novel preventative and therapeutic approaches for neurodegenerative disorders.

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Shanti   
Shanti

Yeah. I've noticed that when I'm hungry, my symptoms get worse. So I eat more small meals so I don't get hungry. I even noticed quite clearly that when my stomach growls, my neck makes that weird spinal fluid noise right along with my stomach. Very weird! I don't know the connection but this is hard to miss.

 

However, I plan to do a juice fast after my recovery to give my body a reboot and help clean my liver. Right now I'm juicing but only having one glass a day. I feel it would be too much of a shock to my system to do a 10 day juice fast yet.

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Shanti   
Shanti

Also, fasting for spiritual reasons is not superstition. Just helping the neurology and brain does indeed have an effect on the spiritual body. The physical and spiritual body are one.

 

Even though the 7 main chakras were charted thousands of years ago, it is known now that each chakra corresponds to 7 major glands of the body. The pineal gland in the brain correlates to the third eye chakra. So the health of your brain does effect you spiritually.

 

The pineal gland also contains rods and cones, like an eye. Even though we don't use it to "see". But, do we see with it? Yes, I believe it has to do with inner vision, dreams and hallucinations.

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Rhiannon   
Rhiannon

I ditto Alto, as usual, as far as caution during withdrawal. I went on Weight Watchers at one point last year and my withdrawal symptoms ramped up even though everything I was eating was nutritious and healthy stuff. I think just the hormones involved with hunger and low-calorie state must have ramped up the HPA related symptoms (cortisol, etc.)

 

Interesting, though, about fasting and neurogenesis. Definitely something to think about for someone who's otherwise strong and healthy.

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Nadia   
Nadia

Apart from fasting, which I think definitely can be a good thing but can be dangerous during withdrawal (just about anything drastic can set us off), I think one thing to be gleaned from these studies is that it's important not to OVEReat. I read about a study a long time ago that said people who were healthiest and lived the longest ate to about 80% fullness. So as with all things, you don't necessarily have to go to an extreme.

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vaseadude   
vaseadude

Wanted to share a video that I found. It is about Tonya Kay, who after 7 years of taking medication, decided to come off in spite of everyone being against her decision, eventually switching to a life foods diet.

Enjoy!

 

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Narcissus   
Narcissus

Thanks for the vid!

 

Recently began eating raw vegetables regularly and I feel much better in general.

 

An easy thing to do is just cut up a bunch of veggies, put em in a whole wheat tortilla and add hummus and/or tahini sauce. I do this daily for my lunch.

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vaseadude   
vaseadude

pgd, sound delicious :).

 

I am also trying to add more raw veggies and fruit, and also trying to cut back on wheat too (because of gluten). But I've heard from other sources that a life food diet can do wonders. A woman testified that she felt great for 8 years since she switched, not having even a common cold! And also there is a man who claims he cured his type 1 diabetes (not 2, but 1!) with such a diet. For me, their ideas make so much sense, like it is how nature intended us to consume food, and that's how our closest primal relatives eat. But, I also have some fear in switching, mostly because of the withdrawal. So, I am just doing minor changes. But hey, many drops fill the cup.

 

Wish you well!

Vasea

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vaseadude   
vaseadude

I've had a really ugly withdrawal after eating like 50% raw and drinking green smoothies daily. It set me off pretty bad, I am still recovering. I think people on psych meds can be pretty sensitive to such changes. I don't know, maybe a gradual introduction would have been more tolerable. But just be careful folks!

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GiaK   
GiaK

raw foods are well and good and really important at least in part...but radical rapid change is really not a good idea...it's true...as we heal we often need different things from food...

I wrote this the other day as a facebook status update on the Beyond Meds page...

Eat what makes you and your body healthy...this will evolve and change as your needs and understanding evolve and change. The one thing that should remain constant is that the diet should consist of mostly if not all REAL WHOLE FOOD. Beyond that whether you're vegan, vegetarian or omnivore is UP TO YOUR BODY. The amount of raw vs. cooked food is also UP TO YOUR BODY. Whole real food...from there you have to listen and learn and be ready to change as is appropriate.

learning to listen to your body taps you into the nature of humanity, being human and all of life really

http://on.fb.me/10k2aYa  <----INVALID LINK (jc)

it's a process that in general takes a lot of time and patience...I sure as heck am still learning as it also goes on forever...

Edited by JanCarol
Note that link is no longer valid, couldn't find original material based on link

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Narcissus   
Narcissus

^Agree with all of that.

 

I will say that for me eating raw vegetables produces a wonderful feeling of health and warmth, a kind of 'glow' spread throughout my body. I don't think it really eases my withdrawal at all, but it makes me feel good apart from that. There's something magical about those raw veggies.

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fj929   
fj929

Has anyone on here ever gone on a Ketosis diet? Seems like it's powerful stuff. It will stop seizures in folks who do not respond to anticonvulsants. It's shown promise in treating other conditions of the brain such as TBI, Parkinsons, Stroke and there it improved the memory and cognition of folks who suffered from early signs of Dementia. It's a rough diet and not one that is easy to adhere to but is it possible it could help our situations if adhered to for a short period of time. Anyone ever try?

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Meimeiquest   
Meimeiquest

I don't have info, but mercola.com covered it as a treatment for cancer, ESP. Brain cancer, as cancer cells can only use glucose for fuel, whereas normal cells can adapt to both.

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GiaK   
GiaK

I tried it for about three months...catapulted me into HELL..make my inflammation far worse...it was AWFUL..I also did it under the care of a medical professional who has extensive experience...I knew what I was doing. It F**ked me up...

 

I won't assume that would happen for everyone, but in my instance...OH MY...ugly!

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GiaK   
GiaK

of course I tried it because, yeah, there is lots of info that suggests it might be helpful...oh well.

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fj929   
fj929

What are you symptoms? Do you have any cognitive issues? Everyone is different I'm wondering if it may help some but not others.

Has anyone else gone low carb and been either helped or hurt by it?

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GiaK   
GiaK

I've had extreme and pervasive symptoms of all kinds...

 

I did a symptom list a while back...I'll link to it for you as I'm not up to reiterating it all here...

 

I'm not as sick at this juncture as a lot of time has passed and I've done many things towards healing:

 

http://beyondmeds.com/2010/12/22/withdrawalsymptomlist/

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GiaK   
GiaK

general low carb has helped me...lots of people find help on paleo like diets...there are threads on that here on this site and lots of info elsewhere too if you're interested...

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/890-scdgapspaleo-diets/page__p__7709__hl__%2Bpaleo+%2Bgaps__fromsearch__1#entry7709

 

that's the main thread on this site

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fj929   
fj929

what has helped me most is discovering a histamine intolerance...which I suspect many people would likely find to be pertinent:

 

info on that here:

http://beyondmeds.com/2013/02/25/a-mini-histamine-intolerance/

 

 

Giak I'm glad to hear you are doing better. How are your cognitive issues? Have they improved as well? What would you say percentage wise?

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GiaK   
GiaK

generally yes...but I still have set backs...like I'm having a really bad allergic reaction right now to a food I didn't expect to be problematic...but in general since discovering the histamine link my recovery has been moving at an unprecedented clip...(I'm still really sick, but I can actually measure improvement in a way I've not ever been able to before)

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Jemima   
Jemima

Many of us have found that most sorts of tampering with our bodies in the withdrawal state (including such seemingly benign things as taking vitamins and supplements) end up being more hurtful than good. Extreme low carb diets in general aren't healthy and I would be quite afraid to try one while being over-sensitized from withdrawal. The conditions it supposedly helps aren't related to what we experience in withdrawal, so I can't imagine why a Ketosis diet would do any good.

 

I know withdrawal is so miserable that we're about ready to try anything that isn't definitely fatal to make it better. I spent a fortune on supplements in the early months of my own withdrawal only to find that fish oil and magnesium were the only ones that did any good, and even their effects were barely discernible at first. (I think, in the long run, they've both served me well, however).

 

Time and patience are the best tools for withdrawal that we have at present.

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GiaK   
GiaK

actually the neurological issues are quite similar to some of the indications ketosis is used for and there are many reasons I considered the ketosis diet besides that...it's been found to be mood stabilizing for example...

 

and while many of my experiments with diet and supps did wreak havoc, if I hadn't make some very significant and yes, sometimes, radical changes I would not be doing as well as I am right now...

 

caution is always advised but our bodies know great things and learning to listen to them does require some fits and starts and mistakes as well...

 

listen to your body and make changes slowly...that's certainly good advice...

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Phil   
Phil

I've been doing a ketogenic diet for about 3 months now, and it's definitely helped me in many ways, whilst driving me crazy in others. Initially I was more stressed as my body adjusted to the lack of carbs, and the emotional cravings for junk foods have been the worst. 

 

Now, 3 months in things are better. My mood is more stable, my circadian rhythmn is normalizing (although this is partly down to blue blocking sunglasses, which I wear in the evenings), but the most amazing thing is that my Vitamin D and white blood cell counts have returned to normal! (this time last year they were both too low). This is without taking any supplements and happened over Winter! My doctor was very surprised and said "whatever you're doing, keep doing it!" I wasn't eating much fish either so I didn't get it that way. 

 

I eat mostly meat and fats now. I have had to cut out vegetables temporarily as they cause me IBS like symptoms and bloating - I suspect I may have SIBO. 

 

Who knows if this diet is helping withdrawal damage or not, but I feel better on it personally. I've started accupuncutre sessions to aid with stress relief too and they're a massive help!

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GiaK   
GiaK

good to hear...and goes to show that everyone is different AGAIN.

 

I've been doing much better too...I actually ended up vegan for about 8 months to clear out histamine and now I eat a fraction of the meat I used to...and I was hardcore paleo for a long long time...

 

it pays to stay open minded because even our own bodies need different things at different times...

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Zoe   
Zoe

Ok- this may be a silly question, but how do you tell is you are histamine sensitive?

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Rhiannon   
Rhiannon

I would just reiterate that during withdrawal people find they can be sensitive to all kinds of things, and to be careful about drastic dietary changes or any other drastic changes in lifestyle.

 

If you're going to try anything drastic (dietary, lifestyle, supplements etc.) make sure it's during a time when you have enough slack to cope with worsening of your withdrawal symptoms if that should happen.

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Rhiannon   
Rhiannon

Ok- this may be a silly question, but how do you tell is you are histamine sensitive?

 

There's a whole thread on this under Symptoms and Self-Care--do a search and you will be rewarded with a wealth of information.

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alexjuice   
alexjuice

My intuition suggests that the majority of cases will get much worse on an ketogenic diet since ketosis benefits protozoal and fungal infections which strike me as frequent in this population. However for some minority ketogenic dieting could be beneficial as ketosis stimulates immunity against viral and bacterial infections.

 

I believe, with a mountain of circumstantial evidence at my back, that a substantial component of w/d syndrome is due to unmasking of chronic immune challenges -- particularly protozoa in the nervous system so this is why ketosis would be very bad most often.

 

Cheers.

 

Alex

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NVbar   
NVbar

Alex, 

 

Be interested in reading more about why ketogenic wouldn't work...do you have any resources or papers I could read?

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Meimeiquest   
Meimeiquest

I tried it for awhile, and started to worsen in subtle ways. Found a place that said in the Framingham study, it did increase CRP and cortisol somewhat, and those are my arch enemies, so guessing that was the reason.

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Petunia   
Petunia

Similar topics merged and title changed.

 

Any members who have changed their diet in an attempt to aid recovery, please add to this discussion with your results.

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