Jump to content
Altostrata

$#*! my doctor says

Recommended Posts

Barbarannamated

The absolute worst ones come from my MD husband. He loves to disect studies and determine the quality of the design, selection bias, blah blah blah, and then make a determination if it qualifies as the gold standard 'Evidence Based Medicine' by which all treatment will be approved or not (he does Utilization Review). I've tried to explain what's going on w me for months. Yeserday, he sent text: "so how long until the drug is out of your system?" so that we will know when I'll be all better. It is really good that I am 2000 miles away!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Crocus

My husband and I decided to disclose to his parents what was happening to me. I told his dad (easy) and he told my mother-in-law (notsomuch). She was asking me how I was doing the other day and I told her I was doing my best and that I have put some more resumes out recently. She then said "You can't go to work now, you won't be able to pass a drug test!"

 

AAAuuuuggggghhhh!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Altostrata

Wow, that's profoundly clueless, Bar. He doesn't understand the basic concept of withdrawal. It's not from the presence of the drug in the body, but from its disappearance.

 

If you'd like to send him little gifts in e-mail, we have lots of medical studies in From journals and scientific sources

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Barbarannamated

Wow, that's profoundly clueless, Bar. He doesn't understand the basic concept of withdrawal. It's not from the presence of the drug in the body, but from its disappearance.

If you'd like to send him little gifts in e-mail, we have lots of medical studies in From journals and scientific sources

 

I cannot begin to explain how alone I feel when the 1person who should be my main support AND understand from a scientific perspective is neither. He is on the meds also, so MUCH denial involved. We got into it last nite. Keep in mind that he works w opiate abuse, benzos, and is quite familiar w addiction vs dependence and various detox methods.

He seemed perplexed that ADs have any tie to immune/endocrine system. WOW. I really should record our conversations.

I launched into cytokines, T-helper cells, etc and he shut up.

Docs are so locked into their little specialty now and don't keep current w general medicine, although they'll use the meds. He does UR for Work Comp and there is a huge push to get people off the evil opiates. They are using Cymbalta and other SNRIs, Lyrica, etc for pain. There is a newer pain med, Nucynta, that is an opiate w significant 5HT AND noradrenergic properties. Similar to tramadol, it seems.

All very disturbing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Barbarannamated

I have given him many articles, but b/c they do not meet the almighty standards of Evidence Based Medicine, he disregards them. I found a great abstract critiquing EBM and that it is 'only as strong as the studies that are PUBLISHED.' Zing!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Altostrata

Wait, he doesn't get it that antidepressants act on the CNS? That seems like defensive denial.

 

Bar, as Bill Maher said to Keith Olbermann: "You know what? Stop organizing life around the people who don’t get the joke. **** them, if they don’t get a joke."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Barbarannamated

He thinks that the CNS that ADs work with is restricted to the brain (even though he thinks Cymbalta is good for neuropathic pain, etc.).

I think he's slowly realizing the limitations of his medical model.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Barbarannamated

OHDEARGODHELPME! Each morning he (husband-MD) reads the latest news about the 'epidemic of opiate addiction'. ALOUD, to me.

 

Today: "CDC reports that 50 people die every day from opiate use."

MY REPLY: Well, it's good that opiate detox is easy and help is available.

 

Would it be appropriate to start a discussion about opiate detox/WD vs. SS/NRI DC? I recall several people mentioning the topic throughout discussions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Altostrata

Sure. How about in Tapering?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
meistersinger

 

 

But they're all like that.....

Sur... how about most - not "all". There are a few decent doctors, I want to believe, that are willing to at least listen... and learn.

 

The people I ride to church choir rehearsals with have a son who is an GP in Texas. (Also a damn fine musician, having graduated from the University of North Texas's Jazz studies program almost 30 years ago. I've known him since he was 12 years old.) I was talking to his parents tonight on the way home from rehearsal, and asked what he thought of the state of modern medicine in general. He's not exactly a happy camper. He's not pleased that he can't spend more than 15 minutes with his patients. Unfortunately, his hands are tied, due to regulations (Medicare, in the case of his elderly patients.) He does break policy from time to time, and has even used his own time, in some instances, to go up against an insurance company who would deny payment for a diagnostic procedure the patient obviously needed. So, not only does big Pharma (and I have to be careful here, as I have a cousin that is a rep for Big Pharma (and he is only 1 of my cousins I get along with. Also helps that this guy is a farm boy, and never forgot from whence he came. Also has his degrees from Temple and Philadelphia College of Pharmacy and Science (FWIW)), but Big Insurance and Uncle Sugar has their hands in the pie also.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jemima

...Then today I tell her I am at 7.7mg and having to cut very slow because of the bad WD and she says "Well I can keep reassuring you but you won't listen. Nothing will happen if you quit right now. 7.7mg of Paxil is nothing and is doing nothing."

Good grief, that's almost exactly what my doctor said when I told her I was down to 2.5 mg. of Lexapro. She laughed and described my dosage as "nothing". I'd like to see her go through withdrawing from "nothing". She also gave me very bad advice about withdrawing by taking the dose every other day and then quitting. :angry:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Altostrata

These are doctors who don't understand the concept of gradual individualized tapering.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dalsaan

A bit of back and forth between me and a psychologists I went to, once

 

You're having panic attacks

No I'm not

Yes you are

Am not

Are so

 

I said we're not four!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Shanti

Wow, that's funny, almost lol

 

I haven't seen this thread. I don't understand why doctors aren't seeing this yet. Why are they still telling us that these drops are "nothing"? They should know by now!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jemima

I haven't seen this thread. I don't understand why doctors aren't seeing this yet. Why are they still telling us that these drops are "nothing"? They should know by now!

 

It's because they get so much "information" from the drug companies. God knows, Big Pharma isn't going to tell the truth and risk losing sales. <_<

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Barbarannamated

Doctors are not trained to think for themselves or challenge their established paradigm. Yes, pharma plays into that, a true symbiotic relationship. Not many doctors will even stray outside of their specialty or subspecialty. 'Agitation' can be a hallmark of bipolar, depression, pain, ADHD, neurological disorders, Alzheimers and other dementias, etc.

TRUE STORY: I was having a java in a courtyard cafe at a UC Med School not long ago. An MD that I recognized as a psychiatrist was talking to the young husband of recent intake to Neuropsych Hospital. They were close to me and I could hear every word. Young Hispanic man told pdoc that his wife had migraines and she got irritable and angry when she had them. (Me: yep, me, too) Doc: she gets ANGRY?? Man: yea. She hurts. She gets... mad. Doc: Why does she get mad?? Does she have bipolar disorder? Man: No. She hurts! Pain. She yells. (Me, still thinking: yep. Im a ***** when I hurt.) Doc: it sounds like she's bipolar!

 

ME: DOCTOR, lay down while I kick you repeatedly in the head and then tell me how YOU feel!!!!

 

That poor young guy was so bewildered. I was ready to deck that pdoc! I did tell the head of the Psych Residency Training who I happen to know. I was astounded that this doc really was struggling to understand how migraines and anger/irritability correlated. He had his psychiatry and bipolar blinders on. May have been a clinical trials researcher also. Even more incentive to find appropriate subjects.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dalsaan

Babarannamated,

 

If that kicking experiment ever materializes I recommend you aim a little lower

 

D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
compsports

Doctors are not trained to think for themselves or challenge their established paradigm. Yes, pharma plays into that, a true symbiotic relationship. Not many doctors will even stray outside of their specialty or subspecialty. 'Agitation' can be a hallmark of bipolar, depression, pain, ADHD, neurological disorders, Alzheimers and other dementias, etc.

TRUE STORY: I was having a java in a courtyard cafe at a UC Med School not long ago. An MD that I recognized as a psychiatrist was talking to the young husband of recent intake to Neuropsych Hospital. They were close to me and I could hear every word. Young Hispanic man told pdoc that his wife had migraines and she got irritable and angry when she had them. (Me: yep, me, too) Doc: she gets ANGRY?? Man: yea. She hurts. She gets... mad. Doc: Why does she get mad?? Does she have bipolar disorder? Man: No. She hurts! Pain. She yells. (Me, still thinking: yep. Im a ***** when I hurt.) Doc: it sounds like she's bipolar!

 

ME: DOCTOR, lay down while I kick you repeatedly in the head and then tell me how YOU feel!!!!

 

That poor young guy was so bewildered. I was ready to deck that pdoc! I did tell the head of the Psych Residency Training who I happen to know. I was astounded that this doc really was struggling to understand how migraines and anger/irritability correlated. He had his psychiatry and bipolar blinders on. May have been a clinical trials researcher also. Even more incentive to find appropriate subjects.

 

Barb,

 

Many years ago, I worked for a department chief who would say, "JFC, what the h-ll is going on here?" I would say the same thing to this psychiatrist except substitute the word "psychiatry" for here and then ask why every human condition on this earth is turned into a mental illness. Then I would kick him:)

 

CS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Skyler

'Agitation' can be a hallmark of bipolar, depression, pain, ADHD, neurological disorders, Alzheimers and other dementias, etc.

 

Sheeh, sound like symptoms of the human condition to me. Bipolar Schmolarity

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Barbarannamated

Babarannamated,

 

If that kicking experiment ever materializes I recommend you aim a little lower

 

Duly noted !

 

@Schuyler - as well as side effect of drugs used to treat said conditions. Oh, this really AGITATES me!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jr1985

I've had this old chestnut - "it's your old symptoms resurfacing!". Even though I'd just explained it was nothing like my "old symptoms"!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Barbarannamated

I wish I had a videocam in my house...

Husband (MD) began doing medication management reviews for an insurance company. He talks to treating physician about reducing doses, DCing meds, etc. Aimed at opiates, but most people are on antidepressants, benzos, sleepers, muscle relaxants, etc. I just cant listen, it's that painful, and he has asked me to leave when he has a call, so at least we agree on that. We have only 2 room house, so spending time in bedroom.

 

However, my bionic hearing picked up "do you think she may still be grieving the loss of her husband and not depressed??" Maybe he DOES hear some things I say :)

 

Aw, heck...some of the cases are online if anyone is interested. Not atypical for Work Comp:

http://www.prium.net/resources/case-studies/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
annej

Here's another one for the $#*! my doctor says files:

 

I looked up repetitive "lip smacking" and "lip puckering" along with dystonic neck jerking to figure out what kind of hell I was in and to see if this was "normal" for benzo withdrawal. My family did not think it was so normal and has several hours of graphic videotape of my movement disorder. So I look up these symptoms and find out that the orofacial repetitive movements are classic for tardive dyskinesia and the eternal pacing with "severe inner restlessness" (this is an understatement) was another movement disorder called akathisia. I was more than a bit shocked and overwhelmed and called one of the pdocs I had consulted because of this torture (not my reg pdoc).

 

I said, "Dr. Butthead, I think I have a movement disorder because I am doing x, y, and z. He said (drum roll). . . You absolutely do not have a movement disorder. You have agitation and anxiety. You are a very sick woman and are delusional. Your delusion is that medications cause illness. You really need to see a therapist and the only way I can help you is if you take medication. You do not have a movement disorder. You read too much on the Internet".

 

He wanted me to take high dose Seroquel, Baclofen, and Lyrica to "help" with the benzo withdrawal! Not to mention that he cold turkeyed me off of Remeron and denied that my extreme terror was caused by the cold turkey. "Remeron does not cause withdrawal", he maintained.

 

My neurologist, a movement disorders specialist, on the other hand, took a 2 hour history of all my meds taken, performed a very thorough physical examination, watched the video I brought in and said, "You have classic Tardive Akathisia and Tardive Dyskinesia" which has been masked by the Klonopin". I knew exactly what I had, but to get validation of my suffering was of some help.

 

When I told my regular pdoc what happened to me (he's the one who helped me reinstate), he knew exactly what was going on. I knew this when he asked me, "So when was the last time you took an atypical? (as he was scurrying through my chart flipping through all his notes).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Barbarannamated

Opinions on starting a "Bad Doctor" list? There are Vitals, Health Grades, Angie's List, etc. Some are clueless; others are arrogant and truly dangerous and suffering no consequences for their actions even when it is known that there was negligence. I realize legal action is highly unlikely, but, there must be a way to steer people away from dangerous doctors. Why would they change if there are no consequences?

 

Anniej, I saw a woman who had torticollis from neuroleptics years ago. Looked horrible.

 

Dr. Butthead - LOL! Cousin of Dr. D****

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
annej

Opinions on starting a "Bad Doctor" list? There are Vitals, Health Grades, Angie's List, etc. Some are clueless; others are arrogant and truly dangerous and suffering no consequences for their actions even when it is known that there was negligence. I realize legal action is highly unlikely, but, there must be a way to steer people away from dangerous doctors. Why would they change if there are no consequences?

 

Anniej, I saw a woman who had torticollis from neuroleptics years ago. Looked horrible.

 

Dr. Butthead - LOL! Cousin of Dr. D****

 

Must have been a nephew of Dr. Richard Head. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
annej

Opinions on starting a "Bad Doctor" list? There are Vitals, Health Grades, Angie's List, etc. Some are clueless; others are arrogant and truly dangerous and suffering no consequences for their actions even when it is known that there was negligence. I realize legal action is highly unlikely, but, there must be a way to steer people away from dangerous doctors. Why would they change if there are no consequences?

 

Anniej, I saw a woman who had torticollis from neuroleptics years ago. Looked horrible.

 

Dr. Butthead - LOL! Cousin of Dr. D****

 

I think that a "Bad Doctor's" list is an excellent idea. As a matter of fact, you have given me a very good idea. . . More on that later.

 

The classic comeback of any negative review of a shrink are that the patient is "severely mentally ill".

 

However, I have every faith that momentum is building not only from "consumers", but that the infrastructure of the classic "biomedical" approach to psychiatry is starting to slowly, ever so slowly, unravel. Albeit, too slowly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Barbarannamated

Very good point, Anniej (blame the patient, once again). The info would need to be factual, not emotive, and backed by research whenever possible.

Media has helped propagate the fraudulent chemical imbalance myth. Media (at least the internet) works both ways.

Look forward to your idea, Anniej!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
annej

Here's another to add to the $#* crap my doctor says file:

 

Backstory: In April I was hospitalized by a supposedly benzo-wise doctor (one who actually believes in "protracted" benzo withdrawals - by US definitions (if you can find a doc who believes in this) to be anything lasting after 5-28 days. This is the same Dr. Butthead in my previous post under this thread. He is an "a-dic-tion" specialist and is a director of a chemical detox unit. Anyway, I was having severe, disabling, withdrawals (now known to be tardive akathisia/tardive dyskinesia)and I went with my mom to see him about how to go about reinstating K or reinstating onto Valium because my family and I were greatly concerned that I was going to take my life. He talked my mom and I out of reinstating and said I could be "greatly helped" by the use of "adjunct meds" and to cold turkey the Remeron on "his" chemical detox unit even though I was 90+ days off of benzos. I would have smoked or eaten cat poop if someone said that this would have relieved me of TA/TD. He failed to diagnose the TA/TD and said it was "agitation" and a return of my "underlying anxiety disorder" (I never took Klonopin for anxiety - only to mask the severe panic ("activation") caused by Effexor). I was so fearful that I had TA/TD that being diagnosed with "agitation" and an "underlying anxiety disorder" sounded good to me.

 

So I go into the chemical detox unit and none of the nurses can figure out why I am on the unit because I am not on any "drugs". I was a total anomaly on this unit. First step: Cold Turkey off of 3.75 mg of Remeron. Second Step: Clonidine patch with resulting severe hypotensive reaction requiring IV fluids to raise my BP. Third Step: Trazadone, Seroquel (of course this does nothing for TA/TD except make it worse), Fourth Step: Sent me to the unit's gym with a chemical dependency counselor who made me exercise for 4 hours straight while in intense agony. Fifth Step: "You need to be on Lyrica and Baclofen". "But Dr. Butthead then I will be addicted to Lyrica and Baclofen". "Don't worry, dear Anne, I would rather you be addicted to Lyrica and Baclofen than go back on benzos. Besides, when you want to come off of them, I can get you off of them easily!" (None of this crap worked and just made me worse and worse!) Sixth Step: After not sleeping for 6 continuous nights (cold turkey off of Remeron), he orders Chloral Hydrate (a GABA-ergic drug which is highly addicting). I refused to take it. My mom asked Dr. Butthead, "Is there any chance that my daughter might become psychotic after not sleeping for 6 days?" Dr. Butthead: "Certainly. But no cause for alarm, it's just psychosis".

 

Last, but not least: "I am starting you on Thorazine to 'help' you with your severe underlying anxiety disorder". You need Thorazine because nothing else is working and you are clearly, severely anxious". You need to take the Thorazine so you can stay off of benzos".

 

Last ditch effort: "Women who go back on benzos have a 1 in 4 chance of committing suicide". Just take the Thorazine!" (I have no idea where he got these statistics and can find nothing to substantiate reinstatement of benzodiazepines with a "kill rate" of 1 in 4.

 

Heroic move: "OK, I think you are making a big deal out of nothing. Thorazine in small doses is perfectly safe. You read too much on the Internet. This is your problem. If you won't take Thorazine, then I will put you on Phenobarbital". OMG, where is the "bad doctor list"?????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Barbarannamated

This wasnt, by chance, a Seventh Day Adventist Teaching Hospital detox facility in inland SoCal?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
annej

This wasnt, by chance, a Seventh Day Adventist Teaching Hospital detox facility in inland SoCal?

 

Huntington Memorial Hospital Chemical Dependency Recovery Center - Pasadena, CA

 

When I was on the unit, a woman in her 60's was being "detoxed" off 16 years of medically prescribed (non-abuse) Ativan and Ambien. She was hallucinating, had severe tremors and terror. The treatment? Phenobarbital, copious doses of Seroquel, a Clonidine patch, and Trazadone. We all know that there are no meds that can treat acute benzo or anti-depressant withdrawal. One can only wonder what happened to her when she got home off of the pheno. This is when people go home, become psychotic, get admitted to a psych unit, misdiagnosed, and drugged. The withdrawal is never acknowledged. The practice of detoxing (cold turkeying) people off of any psych drugs should be outlawed.

 

Another doozy. . .

 

I had severe chest pain and chest pressure on night #4 - classic "elephant on my chest" symptoms. I told the night nurse I was having 10+ chest pain and pressure and to call my doctor. The RN said, "I will not call your doctor, go back to bed". My symptoms were consistent with a potential MI (heart attack). I begged her to call a "rapid response" or take me to the ER. She told me if I wanted to go to the ER (on campus) that I would have to go AMA and walk myself at 3AM across campus to the ER. It was not until I reminded her that as an RN she was the patient's advocate (I am an RN) and that she was practicing medicine without a license by diagnosing whether or not I was having an MI. She called the medical doctor and he ordered a stat EKG. She laughed at me when the EKG was normal and said, "Bet you feel like an idiot now".

 

I can only explain this particular experience as being trapped in a nightmare. It was surreal. My experience is not unique. This is routine, business as usual crap on detox units (and psych units).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Barbarannamated

Anniej,

Your description is eerily reminiscent of my 3 day stint in Loma Linda University Detox. I left AMA with warning from Medical Director to me and husband (MD) that I'd be dead by age 48, with the treatment team shaking their heads in that "oh, such a shame, another is going to die" way. I wasnt given any reason or statistics for the dire prognosis. My husband was on the phone with Medical Director for hours in those days because I was miserable and the methods made no sense to him (frantically researching at home). When I went in, they said it would be a 3-5 day detox (I knew nothing about withdrawal at the time). After I was in, they presented my 'treatment plan' to me: 21 days inpatient. Apparently, they got insurance authorization.

What disturbs me most at this point is that it will forever be in my medical information that I was in a detox facility, an ADDICT. I want to get strong enough to fight that, if only on principle. I cant imagine how much I would pay for insurance on my own IF I could get it. Also, most docs and Urgent Cares in area are owned or connected to Loma Linda Hospital or Redlands Hospital (bad experience also), so my health information comes up in their systems. "Protected Health Information" - yeah, right!

 

I only mention husband's profession to accentuate the level of exploitive salesmanship involved in these programs. I suspect as an RN, you were subject to some "special" tactics. They hate to be questioned or challenged, especially by a "mental patient, an addict".

One night I sat in the meal/TV room where some military guys were doing mandatory detox. They talked about which doctors outside the area would prescribe their drug of choice when they did their time, played the game. At least they kept me distracted for a night.

{{{HUGS}}} Anniej.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jfrank17

Oh my, I could really add some really outlandish/bad things doctors say since it's my job to listen to them all day (medical transcriptionist). Honestly I really CRINGE sometimes at the things some of them do and say. My job has NOT made me have more faith in doctors; in fact it's been a bit damaging in that I really have a hard time having any faith at all in them when there really are some good doctors out there. I may have to visit this thread when I hear something particularly infuriating/outlandish. (Would never give any specific info that would compromise confidentiality.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jfrank17

I actually thought of a couple things from when I was dealing with Effexor. I was college age at the time and had no idea about withdrawal, but started having head zaps and nausea sometimes in the mornings. Later I would finally make the connection that after I took Effexor the symptoms went away. It had such a short half life that I'd basically wake up with the beginnings of withdrawal each day.

 

Anyway, in trying to explain to the doctor that I thought it had something to do with the med, he absolutely refused the idea that it could be withdrawal, he was positive it was just my own anxiety. To my claim that I got better again after taking the med, he said: "Maybe you get anxious when you realize you haven't had the medication and then that anxiety goes away after you take it."

 

Someday I should sit down and write up my history on all that happened after I was put on Effexor. I think about it sometimes and what I went through with doctors and I can't believe it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Altostrata

jfrank, I look forward to your contributions to $#*! my doctor says :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Barbarannamated

jfrank, I look forward to your contributions to $#*! my doctor says :)

 

Me, too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jfrank17

Another personal experience, this time with a different doctor, again dealing with Effexor. I was still pretty clueless. This was the 1990s and there just weren't the vast resources online that there are today. I was talking to my doctor puzzling what this "dizzy" sensation was. I wish I had thought of head zaps during those days but I could not think of how to describe it other than dizziness. He suggested that he had noted my blood pressure tended to run low, often 90s systolic, and that Effexor had a side effect of raising BP. He figured my "dizzy" spells were due to hypotension and Effexor made it go away because of the BP raising side effect.

 

Talk about reaching.. but I just couldn't figure what else it would be since all my doctors seemed to agree the AD wasn't addictive and there is no physical dependency on it, thus no withdrawal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.