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Sunny1008

Hypersensitive to B vitamin or B vitamin complex?

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Sunny1008

Hi all,

 

I have been taking some supplements, i.e. fish oil, etc. for the withdrawal symptoms, and today I added Vitamin B-complex. I am wondering if I could be having a negative reaction to it. I am having a lot more anxiety and agitation than usual today, and I have read that vitamin B can be stimulating and aggravating. I think I will stop taking it b/c I feel worse.

 

Anyone know anything about this?

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Punarbhava

Hi all,

 

I have been taking some supplements, i.e. fish oil, etc. for the withdrawal symptoms, and today I added Vitamin B-complex. I am wondering if I could be having a negative reaction to it. I am having a lot more anxiety and agitation than usual today, and I have read that vitamin B can be stimulating and aggravating. I think I will stop taking it b/c I feel worse.

 

Anyone know anything about this?

 

 

So many people react negatively to B vitamins during WD and in the ways you have described.

 

I had to elminate those vitamins during WD and during post taper, despite the fact that I had taken them religiously for many years. They definitely increased my agitation, anxiety and even caused panic attacks for me.

 

 

 

Some people will react negatively to fish oil as well, experiencing a stimulating effect.

 

 

It's best to introduce such things one at a time, and in small doses ........gradually increasing as tolerated. Hope this helps to validate your experience and observations.

 

 

 

 

Punar

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Altostrata

Taking a B complex is always risky, as there are some B vitamins that tend to be activating.

 

Others, such as vitamin B12 may help. But you don't know what causes a bad reaction if you take them all together.

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alexjuice

I've had the same problem with every B-vit I've tried.

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Altostrata

Right, some people are sensitive to all of them.

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Sunny1008

Thank you everyone. I have been doing fish oil for a while now, and seem to tolerate it ok, but then just today added the B vitamin complex. I think it is too much for my system. I think I will just stick with the fish oil for now - it seems to be the only thing I can tolerate.

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Nadia

What did you notice? I seem to do OK with B vitamins... I think. I have not noticed them helping or hurting, I don't think. But it's hard to keep track of everything.

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Sunny1008

Nadia,

 

I noticed increased anxiety and agitation after taking the B-complex, worse than the "normal" symptoms.

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Altostrata

I've definitely felt too much stimulation from vitamin B6, which is supposed to be "nervous system support."

 

I had good results from vitamin B12 shots. It could be I had a subclinical deficiency.

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summer

I've been taking Vit B 12 for several months. I noticed my energy level increased within a week of taking it. That's the only one I take in the B family.

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compsports

I've been taking Vit B 12 for several months. I noticed my energy level increased within a week of taking it. That's the only one I take in the B family.

 

Just to show we are all different, when I added it very slowly in micro amounts, I still became very agitated.

 

Yet, I have had days where I could take a b-complex vitamin in addition to my multi and I was still tired as heck. That is how tricky and frustrating WD is.

 

I am glad the B-12 helped you.

 

CS

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Nadia

When you guys notice a negative effect, is it pretty immediate? I have been taking B vitamins all along in my multivitamin... wondering if I should eliminate them and see if I feel a difference.

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summer

When you guys notice a negative effect, is it pretty immediate? I have been taking B vitamins all along in my multivitamin... wondering if I should eliminate them and see if I feel a difference.

 

There is so little B in a multi vit, I doubt you will see any real difference if you stop it.

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Altostrata

My theory is, if you've been taking it all along, your body is probably acclimated to it.

 

I found if I increased B6 (it comes in my multi-vitamin, too), I had problems immediately.

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Nadia

That's interesting, because often they recommend B6 for anxiety... I wonder if that indicates that withdrawal anxiety has some other cause or source than "regular" anxiety...

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Altostrata

B6 might be fine for "regular" anxiety but it does something to our hypersensitive nervous systems it doesn't do to normal nervous systems.

 

A lot of things recommended for depression or anxiety are like that. They may work well in normal nervous systems, not so well in nervous systems sensitized by withdrawal.

 

Which is one reason I say you can't treat withdrawal as though it were relapse.

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Nadia

This is very interesting... I wonder if it holds clues to what is going on. I've been re-reading Harvey et al's article on the neurobiology of antidepressant withdrawal, and also doing some research on sleep (I mean to post on that when I have more time)...

 

Normally I think vitamin B6 helps with anxiety because it aids in the synthesis of GABA (a neurotransmitter that, at least normally, has an inhibitory function and thus can help in dampering anxiety and stress responses)... Interestingly, valerian and L-theanine and skullcap and such are GABAergic (meaning they increase the availability of GABA), normally having an anxiolitic effect. But it seems like a lot of us don't have the normal reaction to these substances...

 

Harvey et al state that with antidepressant withdrawal (though they are probably talking about immediate withdrawal, not months afterwards) you will have a loss of glial glutamate transporters and a buildup of synaptic glutamate, just like in depression, but also an increase in glutamate NMDA receptor density. They conclude that "this, and the loss of neurotrophic cover [neurotrophins help to stimulate neurogenesis, or control it] will underlie synaptic and neuronal remodeling that may be different to that of the previous episode." (pg. 1112). Apparently, there is a pretty complicated and still poorly understood feedback mechanism between NMDA receptors and GABA inhibition...

 

[There is also an interesting connection between NMDA receptors and neuropathic or chronic pain apparently (described usually as burning, shooting, tingling!)... which might explain why some people in withdrawal develop this type of problem.]

 

This might just be a red herring and me going nuts trying to understand something I can't really wrap my head around (alas I would have to study SO much more to even begin to try to understand, and the main reason I did not go into neuroscience is because I'm terrible at chemistry and math)... but I think what is clear is that YES, you can't treat withdrawal like normal anxiety... even if some things that work for anxiety can work for us, like exercise, CBT, etc.

 

In any case, I think mostly it's just a matter of waiting and doing whatever you can not to exacerbate the problem (the latter being the tricky part).

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Altostrata

I interpret bad reactions to supposedly "calming" substances as paradoxical: Usually the reaction is an increase in alerting.

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Nadia

Are there any theories about why something goes paradoxical? And right off the bat or very quickly?

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Altostrata

In general, your alerting system resists too strong an effort to turn it down. You have to sneak up on it.

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btdt

One thing I did notice in early withdrawal is a b complex I was taking because of fatigue had no B6btw was fine for a couple of wks then it seemed to build up in my system and bam anxiety went off the chart. Could have been a wave too but I stopped the vit complex and waited it out. I found the same thing when taking a multi vit... after a few days I had to stop it. Then there is the small issue of reacting very badly to vit D3 I cannot take it more than a couple of days without going off and having a sleep as I cannot rest when I take it anxiety is an issue too with this vit.

I was following doctors orders to take the D for bones and I was quite low on the blood work further testing showed the more I put in my body the more it get rid of?? still working on that one as I have not had an explanation for it yet that makes any sense to me.

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Altostrata

That does seem odd, about the vitamin D, btdt.

 

Maybe food sources would be better for you than a supplement? For absorption?

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Baxter

This is kind of ignorant - I haven't read the whole thread, but feel compelled to chime in about vitB which knocked me into the middle of next week when I tried it. Those B vits seem to be incredibly potent.

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Patience

I another one who can't tolerate B-complex. I get anxiety from it. But, I can tolerate a sublingual B-12/Folic acid combo. The one I got has only the two vitamins and honey. It tastes great, but I often forget to take it. I figure I'll get what I need from my food.

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btdt

That does seem odd, about the vitamin D, btdt.

 

Maybe food sources would be better for you than a supplement? For absorption?

 

I am not sure what is up with it either I try to eat well rest exercise some. I am not sure if it is something usually checked on a blood test or not. I think they only tested me for it either because of my broken foot or because of the reaction. I was told if you have a parathyroid issue you can get a reaction to vit D but according to the test I had that is fine so it is a mystery one of many.

What I do know is I had more vitD in my blood test prior to taking a supplement than I did after so I will do it the old fashioned way and eat.

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wdtony

Before the adverse reaction to Lexapro, I could tolerate large doses of B-vitamins. B6 was the only one which would cause a flushing feeling in my face and neck and this was only with a large amount of B6. I always took a multivitamin every day then.

 

After the Lexapro incident, I took a milti-vitamin which contained B-vitamins and couldn't tolerate it. Also, I specifically took a B-vitamin complex which contains ONLY B-vitamins and had a horrible nervous reaction which lasted several hours. This came as a surprise at that time as I had not expected it.

 

I will not take large amounts of B-vitamins anymore, only small amounts found in food and cereal.

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btdt

B6 might be fine for "regular" anxiety but it does something to our hypersensitive nervous systems it doesn't do to normal nervous systems.

 

A lot of things recommended for depression or anxiety are like that. They may work well in normal nervous systems, not so well in nervous systems sensitized by withdrawal.

 

Which is one reason I say you can't treat withdrawal as though it were relapse.

 

I have had paradoxical reaction to lorazepam too so withdrawal is a tricky one good thing to come of this I have taken no further benzos during withdrawal and don't plan to ever take them again. When I discuss this with the one doctor whos opinion I trust he said it is rather common for a child to have this reaction to this drug but not adults.

I will have jokingly say here that maybe the day I took it was one of those days my hormones were pre-pubescent :) only half joking but I really don't know. I know my hormones were fluctuating to the extent that I had several different reading for six months did not have the same thing twice.

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Altostrata

Bifidobacteria to the rescue! The B vitamins are very important to healthy neurological function, but many of us with withdrawal syndrome get bad reactions to B vitamins.

As it turns out, friendly gut bacteria are B vitamin factories, specifically ones from the Bifidobacteria adolescentis species.

From http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Bifidobacterium_adolescentis
 


Species

B. angulatum; B. animalis; B. asteroides; B. bifidum; B. boum; B. breve; B. catenulatum; B. choerinum; B. coryneforme; B. cuniculi; B. dentium; B. gallicum; B. gallinarum; B indicum; B. longum; B. magnum; B. merycicum; B. minimum; B. pseudocatenulatum; B. pseudolongum; B. psychraerophilum; B. pullorum; B. ruminantium; B. saeculare; B. scardovii; B. simiae; B. subtile; B. thermacidophilum; B. thermophilum; B. urinalis; B. sp.

Description and significance
Bifidobacterium adolescentis. A helpful bacterium that is an inhabitant of the human intestinal tract. Photo: Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, Food Research and Development Centre. Limited reproduction rights. These images cannot be used for any other purposes than educational and cannot be used for commercial purposes without the approval of the owner. From The Food Research and Development Centre, Canada. Diane Montpetit

Bifidobacterium adolescentis are normal inhabitants of healthy human and animal intestinal tracts. Colonization of B. adolescentis in the gut occurs immediately after birth. Their population in the gut tends to maintain relative stability until late adulthood, where factors such as diet, stress, and antibiotics causes it to decline....
....
B. adolescentis synthesizes various B vitamins that are beneficial to the nutritional health of the host organism. Vitamins that are synthesized included thiamin(B1), pyridoxine(B6), folic acid(B9), nicotine, cyanocobalamin(B12), ascorbic acid(Vitamin C), biotin, and riboflavin (4).
 
Also, bifidobacteria contain phytase activity, enabling the dephosphorylation of phytic acid (myo-inositol hexaphosphate, IP6) and produce several myo-inositol phosphate intermediates, IP3, IP4, and IP5. IP6 has been shown to have antinutritional effects by limiting the dietary bioavailability of amino acids and minerals such as Ca2+, Z2+, and Fe2+ [calcium, zinc, and iron]. However, bifidobacteria reduce these effects by dephosphorylating IP6 into less phosphorylated products during food processing and gastrointestinal transit. Additionally, these less phosphorylated intermediates are also involved in regulating vital cellular functions (5).

 
I strongly suggest everyone with withdrawal symptoms take a probiotic containing bifidobacteria to assist B vitamin production for healing from withdrawal syndrome. These are widely available; bifidobacteria are often in yogurt or other cultured milk products, as well as lactobacillus. The product should list its probiotic bacteria and assure it contains "live cultures."
 
Especially if you've had gut trouble since childhood, you may wish to include bifidobacterium infantis, one type of  bifidobacterium that's shown to be very helpful http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Bifidobacterium+infantis
 
NOTE: You will NOT be able to find a product that contains ALL the bifidobacteria species. Most will contain a few strains only.
 
Start off with a very small, gentle dose. In a probiotic capsule, this would be 1 billion-3 billion colony-forming units (CFUs). 
 
My preference is for a probiotic supplement containing fewer strains (maybe up to 5) rather than a lot of them as they can compete with each other. Also, you will get many other probiotic bacteria in your food as a matter of course. Sauerkraut with live cultures is a great source of Lactobacillus plantarum, another type that's been found to be very helpful.

 

NOTE: When trying a probiotic, try a very low dose first and build up. Don't try a megadose to begin with. It is possible for an encapsulated probiotic to disagree with your system.
 

Edited by Altostrata
updated

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bubble

I've just checked our yoghurt with something called Lgg, lactobacillus rhamnosus... they also add vitamin B6 and E to it to boos the immune system (that's its selling point).

 

Do you think it would do the kind of trick you are describing or better go for a proper probiotic supplement?

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Meimeiquest

Making homemade yogurt today with raw milk in my new yogurt maker.

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Nikki

Yogurts maker....sounds great.  I notice that when I take the probiotics on a steady basis my GI tract thanks me by behaving.

 

When I tapered Lexapro I was unable to take B vitamins.  With this taper, it is okay.

 

Funny how you can never really tell what will happen.....

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Altostrata

I would avoid yogurts with added B6, it can be activating.

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GiaK

just a note of caution...people with histamine intolerance can have problems tolerating probiotics...and I'm finding there are a lot of us with histamine issues...

 

I haven't been able to find a single strain I tolerate...

 

before I discovered the histamine intolerance I did a lot of probiotics...may have been in part why my withdrawal lasted so long...who knows...but I do think they actually made the histamine issue worse...that said, they did heal my gut in some (at the very least) superficial (but very noticeable) ways...(severe IBS disappeared etc)...so it's hard to know if they helped more or hindered more in the end...

 

I hope to be able to reintroduce them some day...it's clear that they'd be helpful if I could tolerate them...

 

when I had dozens of symptoms it was hard to know what made me worse...and in retrospect I was taking a lot of stuff that was exacerbating the histamine issues...it's taken years to tease all that out

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bubble

I would avoid yogurts with added B6, it can be activating.

thanks a lot! I have absolutely no idea where I would find information like this if it wasn't for this forum and in particular Altostrata :)

 

I'm slowly developing a plan with a list of supplements (and their adequate dosage) based on the info I got here. Till now my use of supplements was completely random so no wonder they couldn't do anything for me...

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btdt

just a note of caution...people with histamine intolerance can have problems tolerating probiotics...and I'm finding there are a lot of us with histamine issues...

 

I haven't been able to find a single strain I tolerate...

 

before I discovered the histamine intolerance I did a lot of probiotics...may have been in part why my withdrawal lasted so long...who knows...but I do think they actually made the histamine issue worse...that said, they did heal my gut in some (at the very least) superficial (but very noticeable) ways...(severe IBS disappeared etc)...so it's hard to know if they helped more or hindered more in the end...

 

I hope to be able to reintroduce them some day...it's clear that they'd be helpful if I could tolerate them...

 

when I had dozens of symptoms it was hard to know what made me worse...and in retrospect I was taking a lot of stuff that was exacerbating the histamine issues...it's taken years to tease all that out

How do you know if you have a  "histamine intolerance" ?

I can't seem to tolerate B vitamins or vitamin D3.  Generally both cause severe anxiety and insomnia.  Except B6 for reasons unknow to me B6 makes me extremely depressed.  I am glad I tried it on it's own so I knew right away it was the B6.  Same story with the D3 and anxiety/severe insomnia. 

B6 is the only B I have taken in isolation but found a mixture of Bs over stimulating. 

I currently take no supplements other than the occasional taurine half a capsule in water... if I am too shaky on the inside. 

 

As for probiotics.  I had a long drawn out withdrawal severe digestive issues were a huge part of it.  I also had serial infections.  I am not talking about infections that could be a bit subjective I am talking about raging infections with obvious signs symptoms and test results to back them up.  So I also had many antibiotics with varying degrees of drug induced further digestive issues.  Probiotics came into play when a doctor suggested them. She was a clinic doctor who later suggested a yeast based probiotic... which I tried ... would not recommend it.. 

​If you are having extreme diarrhea or bowel movements that look like green jello.  Probiotics may work the non yeast type probiotics this was what I did that fixed the problem of green jello bowel movements.  Three capsules of probiotics in apple sauce three times a day for for 30 days. The back up plan was a stool implant.... ya not too thrilled with that idea.  

 

I try to get my vitamins in food when I am well enough to prepare the food I really need. I think food is the best way to get most vitamins but you have to have a body that can digest food first. 

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