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Dr. Yolande Lucire: Adverse Reactions to Psychiatric Drugs

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Muddles

I wanted more info on the genetic mutation theory that has been mentioned on here recently.

 

I phoned her office and was able to speak to her direct. She was so lovely - had a lot to say about the dangers of these drugs. Something she is obviously most passionate about.

 

I am going to take the gene test. She truly believes my adverse side effects I've experienced on the two andidepressants and antibiotics are down to my genes. I have watched a couple of her you-tube clips, very interesting. Homicidle thoughts and suicidle thoughts I both experienced when starting mirtazapine and on and off throughout treatment, Akathisia with both drugs. All of these side effects were reported on those who have this gene mutation.

We also spoke of how individuals are diagnosed with serious mental health problems after suffering adverse reactions to antidepresants - something she has seen too often.

 

She didn't seem to know much about withdrawel. She did say slow - but cutting down every two weeks(which we all know is way too fast). She is also aware that recovery can take a long time but will happen.

 

She knows Dr Healy and says the UK is a lot more knowledgable regarding these issues. Really?? There's nothing in Australia and she doesn't look like she gets any back up.

 

Overall - a very interesting conversation.

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Muddles

CEP - council for evidence based psychiatry.

 

This was a website advised by Yolande.

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Wolfhound

Hi Muddles,

that´s great! Tell me where are you going to take the test, is it a common test nowadays in the U.K:? I wanted to take it as well but it seems it´s a test that only two University institution can do here and I can´t afford it for the moment.

Yolanda Lucire is great. I exchanged a few emails with her in the midst of my Trazadone akathisia, I didn´t expect she would answer! But she did and was extremely kind to me. She is no specialist of withdrawal, that´s true, but she does specialise in the mutations!

Two things I will remember: she simply wrote me: you have to live.

And she added that most of her patients (from her study I suppose) recovered from akathisia within 18 months.

I hold her in high esteem for her work and for her kindness as well.

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Petunia

Lecture given by Yolande Lucire, PhD MBBS:

 

Dr Lucire is a forensic psychiatrist. Her expertise encompasses epidemic hysteria, epidemic somatization and moral panics.

 

Watching this video made me realize just how lethal these drugs can be for some people.  She explains why some people react so badly.

 

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WinningThrough

Hi muddles and wolfhound. Muddles..great that you spoke to her and are having the test. I'd be interested in having this test too. Interesting (and terrible) that you had reactions to antibiotics. I've had severe reactions to two different anti biotics too.

 

I'd love to speak to Yolande lucire too..do you know how I can do this?

 

Thanks :-)

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Wolfhound

Hi WT,

Dr. Yolanda Lucire is an Australian forensic psychiatrist, author of a very interesting study about akathisia. You can find one of her speeches on youtube if I am not mistaken.

I found her email somewhere online. I googled her. But I didn´t spoke to her directly, Muddles did.

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Altostrata

Merged related topics.

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WinningThrough

I spoke to dr lucire on skype. Lovely lady. She said I'd had seretonin toxicity and that I now have chronic post withdrawal akathisia. She said in order to recover from the Akathisia I need to be completely off the drugs.

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Altostrata

Did your symptoms get better or worse after you reinstated sertaline?

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Rhiannon

It sounds like she knows a lot about the damage these drugs can do and the genetic underpinnings, but maybe not as much about how to get people off of them safely. Which makes sense, it's a lot to learn and it doesn't sound like it's her area of specialty (tapering). 

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WinningThrough

Hi Alto :-)

 

I reinstated at 5mg. The brain zaps and eye improved after this but when I looked in my diary I realised that I'd taken lorazepam the day before this happened (I haven't had any since then..a few weeks ago now). I still got the exhaustion and crying spells.

 

On 5mg other things started to ramp up again later in the week..rapid heartbeat, chest tightness, akathisia got worse and the adrenaline rushes started up again. The brain zaps came back a bit. An unacceptable symptom started to re-emerge and it freaked me out so I dropped down to 1mg and came off. Just after that I had a good evening and good day..the best I'd had, then the following day I got hit really hard with withdrawal again..worse than the first time I came off the drug.

 

After a time I reinstated again at 1mg and I've been on this for about 4 weeks now, I think. I'm going through eithdrwal like crazy. The brain zaps and eye pressure are a bit better but now my vision is really blurry. It's deteriorated rapidly the last few days. The akathisia has been getting worse too.

 

I'm not at easy case to solve!! I'm too flippin sensitive!!

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Rhiannon

I spoke to dr lucire on skype. Lovely lady. She said I'd had seretonin toxicity and that I now have chronic post withdrawal akathisia. She said in order to recover from the Akathisia I need to be completely off the drugs.

WT it's up to you, of course. We've already noted that you are someone who should never take these drugs and that right now it's a "rock and a hard place" situation for you--the trouble the drugs cause, versus the withdrawal.

 

From above comments I am not sure that Dr. Lucire realizes how tough withdrawal can be.

 

Personally I think your very low dose reinstatement is a reasonable compromise right now, followed by a safe gradual taper off that low dose (once you're more stable) and then never taking any psych drug again. I agree, you're a tricky case and it's a difficult situation. You just have to do the best you can.

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Altostrata

WT, it sounds like 5mg might have been too much for you.

 

Akathisia can be an adverse effect from taking a drug or it can be a withdrawal symptom.

 

Dr. Lucire is focused on adverse effects of drugs. In her world, akathisia results from taking drugs and the treatment is to stop drugs.

 

As Rhi said, Dr. Lucire may not be aware akathisia also can be caused by withdrawal.

 

In your case, you had akathisia on citalopram and it got worse when you went off; you could have both types of akathisia. From your Intro topic:

 

WT, that's a fairly fast schedule of going off Seroquel. You may be suffering a withdrawal reaction from that as well.

 

It's hard to say what to do. I can understand your reluctance to take either drug again. But reinstatement of a very small amount of citalopram is a way to test the waters. You can back off quickly if it does not help.

 

Listening to your body is the best way to determine the best course of action. If 1mg reduces withdrawal symptoms, perhaps that's the way to go.

 

You may have waves of symptoms until your nervous system stabilizes, one way or the other.

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WinningThrough

Thanks Rhi and Alto for your kind replies. Apols for hijacking this topic! That wasn't my intention..just wanted to add on here that she'd spoken to me and what she had said. I may do the gene test.

 

Youre right..she knows loads about adverse reactions but perhaps not about withdrawal. I'm sticking with my 1mg.

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Altostrata

Not a hijack, not a problem!

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btdt

Is this the testing

DMEx Genotype Panel

 

 

http://www.iversongenetics.com/dme-genotype.html

 

not trying to promote anything just want to know if this is it?

 

I recall talk of this years ago but it did not make as much sense as it does after watching this video it now makes sense that I reacted very badly to both prozac and paxil... suffering hard after quitting after short term use.  

I have just now a very vivid memory of looking at the pink pill in the package as I was still on the trial of paxil ...I was not thinking the drug was causing the wild feeling I was not really thinking at all.. but looking it was time to take it again... it was in a drawer and I shut the drawer... and did not take any more... 

 

Still the effects meant I was on another roll and not going to trust myself to a walk in clinic went to a major hosp a commute so far away I had to get up a 4 am to make it for their day program... every day... what a joke was jerked again there. 

 

I want this testing. 

Any hints how I go about getting it?  

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UnfoldingSky

btdt, there's info about those kinds of tests on this thread:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2158-genetic-testing-personalized-medicine-liver-enzymes-genotypes-genesightrx-etc/page-2?hl=+genetic%20+testing

 

Also I believe I heard maybe a year ago or so ago that they have the tests at a clinic in Toronto?  or somewhere else in Ontario. If I recall properly they were a hundred dollars.  There was some anticipation they would be widely used soon but I don't know if that was just hype to try to sell the tests to the public. 

 

I had a doctor who it seemed was going to order this test for me, then forgot.  When I brought it up again, all of a sudden it was a "no go" topic.  I suspect she thought I was going to sue re the reactions I had, since I was there about ongoing iatrogenic issues.

 

So if you get it done it may be you have to cook up a different reason for wanting it. 

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btdt

Thanks UFS I looked at the link... I am not done trying to find a way to get this testing that I can afford. 

I called this business

http://info.youscript.com/YouScriptRequestDoctors/

and talked to a person there who said it costs $ 1,196.00...

can't afford it.

The conversation was interesting.  Seems the problem with birth control pills I had would be a good clue I was going to have a problem with prozac and atenolol... and paxil... I am convinced I have an issue with this but as yet have not found a way to get it.  

On the last drug reaction alone I am not being sent off to see no less than 4 specialist surely it would be cheaper to do the test and stop giving me drugs that hurt me.  Most of the tests are in the first 2 wks of June one is Aug...sorry that makes 5 specialists not what I want to do with my summer after being shut in all last year recovering from and accident and surgery... yep I am complaining... sorry for that. 

It seems to me this makes complete sense for a person like me who is reacting to every drug they give me.  I will keep looking so far I have not found the place in Canada that can do the testing... I searched Toronto and came up empty but may need to modify my search criteria. 

Thanks for the heads up. 

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UnfoldingSky

Thanks UFS I looked at the link... I am not done trying to find a way to get this testing that I can afford. 

I called this business

http://info.youscript.com/YouScriptRequestDoctors/

and talked to a person there who said it costs $ 1,196.00...

can't afford it.

The conversation was interesting.  Seems the problem with birth control pills I had would be a good clue I was going to have a problem with prozac and atenolol... and paxil... I am convinced I have an issue with this but as yet have not found a way to get it.  

On the last drug reaction alone I am not being sent off to see no less than 4 specialist surely it would be cheaper to do the test and stop giving me drugs that hurt me.  Most of the tests are in the first 2 wks of June one is Aug...sorry that makes 5 specialists not what I want to do with my summer after being shut in all last year recovering from and accident and surgery... yep I am complaining... sorry for that. 

It seems to me this makes complete sense for a person like me who is reacting to every drug they give me.  I will keep looking so far I have not found the place in Canada that can do the testing... I searched Toronto and came up empty but may need to modify my search criteria. 

Thanks for the heads up. 

 

No problem, glad it was some help to you.

 

Eek, that price tag is really steep though...Years ago I remember people writing they had similar tests done and I could swear it was "only" seven hundred dollars.

 

I would keep looking for a Canadian site as I am convinced it is nowhere near that cost here.  (I feel sorry that the Americans are being ripped off like that...They should probably also look for a Canadian site, as I heard recently many Americans are coming up here for other procedures because they are cheaper here, even paying out of pocket.)

 

I don't blame you for not wanting to spend your summer being poked and prodded, it does get old after a while.  :)  Especially for that kind of money.

 

At least you got a partial explanation though as to what was going on. 

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UnfoldingSky

I am going to talk to my primary care doctor and maybe a few of these specialists I have to keep making rich... 

see if one of them will go along with this testing.

 

Let us know what they say.

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Altostrata

I believe Dr. Lucire relies on liver enzyme tests for P450 cytochromes. If you are not taking drugs or thinking about it, the results would be of academic interest only.

 

I had this done and have not found the results the least bit useful in any way.

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UnfoldingSky

Alto, thank you for weighing in.

 

Did you have any adverse reactions (before withdrawal)? 

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Altostrata

I had a severe drug-drug interaction between Paxil and terbinafine, an antifungal with a black box warning for liver damage, which my doctor ignored. I got liver damage, apparently because of Paxil's powerful inhibition of liver enzyme cyp 2D6. It took my liver enzymes a year to go back to normal.

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UnfoldingSky

Sorry to hear that, sounds awful. 

 

It's not likely the tests catch problems like kindling reactions or withdrawal sensitivity reactions right?  Unless maybe you were already likely to have an issue with that drug prior to withdrawal?

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Altostrata

All the cyp tests are good for is to avoid drug-drug interactions and adverse reactions if you are a poor or a fast metabolizer via one of the identified cyp liver enzymes.

 

Once the system is sensitized and prone to kindling, all bets are off, you might have an adverse reaction to anything.

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btdt

My cousin took the toenail fungus drug she had a change in who she was while on it..lamisil same one you took... a short time after she went off the rails she had a drop attack.  Tests showed she had an aneurysm... not sure any of it was related. Just more hearsay...

 

As for this " once the system is sensitized and prone to kindling" Is this forever?  

I seem to be reacting to everything and it seems to be going on for years.  If this is so then the testing will likely make little difference not sure I can't pay what they want I don't have it and have no way of getting it... I will soon have teeth removed as I can't afford to fix them... really  short.  I did not think this would ever happen to me yet here I am. Not whining just stating. 

peace

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btdt

Please Alto...

Is it know if Kindling is something that can go on for years or not?

It has been a number of years now... I keep reacting badly to drugs.  I want this testing because of all the drug reactions I have.  If kindling is something that carries on for a year or two after a drug is taking... that is one thing... but it is a forever thing??? as that is something quit different in my mind. 

 

Is there an answer to this or not?  If there is please tell me.  

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Altostrata

Kindling = hypersensitivity. It can go on for years. It can lessen if you stay away from the things you react to and let your system settle down.

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btdt

Thanks Alto. 

In that case it may well be that is my issue.  However I have made a doctors apt to ask to have the testing done as there are too many reactions.  I am guessing having fibrosis in my liver is not helping anything still if there is any way to predict which drugs would be better perhaps we can lessen the drug reactions I have.  I already have a long list of drugs I can't take and I can't afford to keep pushing the drug factor.  It seems reactions the last few years have been more and more serious in nature. I am not sure what is going on with me just now but I am experiencing something like anxiety... after the atenolol reaction not sure if it is rebound thing but suspect it may be.  Today I gave in and started small amounts of taurine again.  I don't generally take it a lot but may need it for a short time to get stable. 

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Altostrata
btdt

All the cyp tests are good for is to avoid drug-drug interactions and adverse reactions if you are a poor or a fast metabolizer via one of the identified cyp liver enzymes.

 

Once the system is sensitized and prone to kindling, all bets are off, you might have an adverse reaction to anything.

I did not get the testing not sure what happened as I completely forgot about this. There were other tests I wanted to get too I was making a list and put the list in a book ... I need to find the book... 

I think with me just now all bets are off still as I am back to reacting to things I had recovered from such as the dishwasher soap... ugh. I am focused on staying away from drugs best I can so hopefully time and tho I am not eating great I am eating not bad... waiting to get well enough to eat great as it takes a lot of work to do it right. 

peace all

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Fresh

Hi All ,  

  

If anyone is interested in having genetic testing for genes in the CYP2 family  (the genes that metabolize a/d's )    they could contact Dr. Lucire via her website

"adversereactionsaustralia.com"   and she could advise who to contact near to where you live.    You send off a cheek swab to a lab.

As alto says , there's no real advantage to knowing , but for me it was just another piece of the puzzle.

Yola certainly understands that akathisia is part of withdrawal , but even she knows of no way to stop it other than reinstating or restarting.

I'm going to share with her what I've learned here about tapering by 10% . . . she's very open to learning about it from an insiders' perspective.

 

Fresh

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Meimeiquest

Hi All ,  

  

If anyone is interested in having genetic testing for genes in the CYP2 family  (the genes that metabolize a/d's )    they could contact Dr. Lucire via her website

"adversereactionsaustralia.com"   and she could advise who to contact near to where you live.    You send off a cheek swab to a lab.

As alto says , there's no real advantage to knowing , but for me it was just another piece of the puzzle.

Yola certainly understands that akathisia is part of withdrawal , but even she knows of no way to stop it other than reinstating or restarting.

I'm going to share with her what I've learned here about tapering by 10% . . . she's very open to learning about it from an insiders' perspective.

 

Fresh

There are some doctors in the US who have an agreement with Genomind where they test all their patients and write appeal letters if ins. won't pay. Then Genomind agrees to not bill the patients, just accept the insurance reimbursement. I am not sure if those are their "preferred providers" or not. I haphazardly ran into a doctor like that...it is what made her stop hounding me to try more drugs and understand why I was dosing so often, but those are things you figure out in tapering anyway. Although it doesn't apply here, if someone was starting drugs, I think they really do need it.

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Hopefull

I had this done last febuary and it did show that i was alergic to many antidepressants including zoloft. Too late after you have suffered adverse reaction. This should be offered prior to giving antidepressants to patients. I would love to see the laws change in Australia and that this test should be compulsory when prescribing ad's.

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Cheeky

Hi guys,

I saw Dr. Yolande Lucire and I thinks she's  great , she understood about withdrowal and I recommend people to see her, I think she skyp's. I was very impressed with her knowledge about all the drugs and I feel safe having her look after me.

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