☼ joy2730: withdrawing from citalopram, quetiapine

[joy2730]

www.mythsandrisks.info

 

is something I have been reading today, and it seems a pretty good summary of the situation of many users of this site

[Flowers]

5 hours ago, joy2730 said:

Hi everyone and Flowers

 

Just to say I feel very positive and well today.  Still doing well on my 18 mg citalopram.  Really hoping the unreal feelings I had on the last 2 days of my holiday were due to me drinking alcohol (I don't normally drink) and me having more time to think about things and becoming a bit introspective.

 

Had a minute amount of nausea this morning when cleaning my teeth, this is a standard w/d symptom of mine and this afternoon have a sense of 'being less blocked' in my brain today.  My forehead actually feels a bit tickly and as if it is draining something away?  None of this is unpleasant, and makes me feel I am getting somewhere.

 

I go home tomorrow and will see my granddaughter Esme, I can't wait.  My husband had a hip replacement operation 18 months ago, and was told this morning he urgently needs the other one replacing now.  I will take time off from my work to look after him.  This is a reminder to meet to keep as well as I can.  He has had a lot to do for me over the years, I need to keep well for him.

 

Take care everyone, I am not going to post so regularly as I think it makes me think about myself too much, but will do regular updates.

 

Just for the moment 18 mg feels good.

 

Joy

Hi Joy

 

So sorry to hear about your husband needing another hip replacement. This will keep you busy looking after him so you will need all your strength! 

 

Will miss your regular posting but understand - we all need a break sometimes.

 

Keep up the good work whether you remain on 18mg for a while or continue with your taper.

 

Love from Flowers xxx

[joy2730]

I am still going to post regularly Flowers, just not every day.  Once I did it everyday, but it did make me a bit obsessive, always thinking about the way I feel.  So I will probably do twice a week.  It is important that I report back on how I do with the 18 mg, as I didn't feel well on this before after a while.  There is, for me,  a definite different feel to 18 mg compared with 20 mg.

 

My husband was hoping to delay his other hip op until later but the doctor said he really needs to have it done.  My daughter will help too.  There is another reason I want him to have it done too and that is that he takes tramadol and gabapentin for the pain.  I would like to see him stop the tramadol because it depresses his appetite and he doesn't eat enough.  We are a pair of opposite, I think citalopram makes me eat and helps me to be overweight and that tramadol suppresses his appetite and keeps him underweight.  I have tried to joke with him that he will have to reduce it slowly, like I am trying to do with citalopram, because there is a problem with tramadol too.  I don't know about the gabapentin but I suspect there is problem there as well.

 

So I will be posting about twice weekly.  I love this board, it is so interesting to follow how others are doing, and so comforting to know others 'out there' are trying and finding the same type of problems.

 

Eg I read on someone's post today that they feel nausea in the mornings when tapering, but only very slight, and I do sometimes.  It makes me feel better just to read something like that.

 

My husband is really the opposite of me, he is a man of few words, he only ever rings me at work if it is important, he never rings to chat.  He rang me this morning and said his hip needed replacing urgently and I said straight away, 'I will take time off to look after you'.  He did well after the first one, hopefully this one will go well for him too.  He asks so little of me now, and has asked so little from me over the years.  He has grasped that I have been much better since dropping most of my meds, but he doesn't discuss it in detail.

 

Something has occurred to me just today, I was once in hospital for about 6 months and was put on SSRI after SSRI, probably about 6 and cold turkeyed off them all.  I was very ill and thought I was mentally ill and getting worse, but sadly, when I look back I think I was struggling with multiple withdrawal symptoms.  At the same time different mood stabilisers were added and taken away and different sleeping pills.

 

This is just beginning to dawn on me now after all these years.  I think I am repeating myself now, but as a test I said to my husband 'Do you think I should see the GP' and he replied 'No, they will make you worse'. 

 

My little embryonic business seems to be taking off quite nicely, I am visiting a new client tomorrow and the links I have made with other carers so we can work in teams are proving really good.  This is important to me because ultimately I will want to drop live-in work when I no longer have my present client.  I will need to be home based then.  I can but try.

 

Being on this board really is a journey - my eyes are much more open now.  I wish I had known all the stuff I know now years ago, it may have altered the course of my last few decades.

 

Still, I must live in the present and looking back in anger will not help me.

 

I will post in a few days, Flowers, and everyone else, a quick post to tell you how I am doing on 18 mg.  I am really interested to know myself!

 

Joy

[joy2730]

Just to say I am doing well still on 18 mg.  Have been to a fitness class this morning and am now spending the afternoon with Esme.  If I get any odd symptoms this time at 18 mg I am going to try harder to ride them out, and start keeping symptom notes on paper and see if I can notice any waves and windows.

 

I have decided I am very poor at sticking to changes and seeing them through.

 

I am just a coward really.

 

Flowers, re your cycles, it is probably due to the way the drugs work in the body as they build up and leave.  It will be interesting to see if this 2 week waxing and waning continues for you in this clockwork like fashion.

[apace41]

7 minutes ago, joy2730 said:

Just to say I am doing well still on 18 mg.  Have been to a fitness class this morning and am now spending the afternoon with Esme.  If I get any odd symptoms this time at 18 mg I am going to try harder to ride them out, and start keeping symptom notes on paper and see if I can notice any waves and windows.

 

I have decided I am very poor at sticking to changes and seeing them through.

 

I am just a coward really.

 

Joy,

 

Glad you are doing well and enjoying with your granddaughter.

 

You are not a coward -- you are human.  We ALL feel that way and are hardwired to avoid pain and discomfort.  The question is really how you do IN THE MOMENT.

 

The easy part is to say you will "ride things out" when you are feeling good.  The hard part is to actually do it when you feel like, as you Brits would say, "rubbish."

 

I would HIGHLY recommend that you not jump back to 20mg the next time you have an issue if only because you have been fortunate to date in that jumping back up like that has worked for you repeatedly.  Bouncing like that can also stop working without warning and leave you in a difficult place.  I would not want to see that happen to you so staying where you are (and cutting further, very slowly, as and when you feel up to it) is the preferred course.

 

Best,

 

Andy

Edited June 28, 2017 by apace41

[Flowers]

15 minutes ago, joy2730 said:

Just to say I am doing well still on 18 mg.  Have been to a fitness class this morning and am now spending the afternoon with Esme.  If I get any odd symptoms this time at 18 mg I am going to try harder to ride them out, and start keeping symptom notes on paper and see if I can notice any waves and windows.

 

I have decided I am very poor at sticking to changes and seeing them through.

 

I am just a coward really.

 

Flowers, re your cycles, it is probably due to the way the drugs work in the body as they build up and leave.  It will be interesting to see if this 2 week waxing and waning continues for you in this clockwork like fashion.

Joy

 

Andy is right we are all only human and don't want to suffer.  You are anything but a coward and have showed great strength just by trying to taper in view of your past history. 

 

We learn as we go through this process usually by our errors but that is all part of it. No one is perfect.

 

Enjoy your day with Esme.

 

Flowers xxx

[PinballWizard]

Joy,

 

I read your experience with tapering off Celexa. I have been taking 20 mg daily for 10 years (along with other medications), and I am going to discuss reducing my dosage with my doctor. My life was difficult before I started Celexa, but has been a living nightmare since. My psychiatrist recently had me go off Celexa cold turkey to start Zoloft and the results were disastrous. I ended up in the hospital two days later after two run-ins with the police and being in handcuffs because I was punching myself in the face. After taking 20 mg that night I immediately felt better.

 

Finding this website has been a blessing because I would have tried to taper off in a few months. Most likely with my doctor's concurrence. Your struggles have not been in vain. I know much more than I did before reading your post and will use it to avoid similar situations. Your honesty, persistence, and, above all, courage are truly inspiring. You have accomplished so much and should be proud of yourself. Be kind to yourself and never give up. You've come too far.

 

With gratitude,

PW

[joy2730]

Hi PinballWizard, it is great to hear of you starting out on your journey.  Knowledge is power and this is so true when it comes to withdrawing.  Do not become frightened by some 'horror' stories as we never know the full facts on line and lots of things complicate the picture.

 

Assume there will be some difficulties but not that many as you are starting with knowledge.  A positive mental attitude can help greatly.  Even some GPs now are starting to recognise the need for long tapers.  GPs used to routinely take people off these meds over 2 weeks, and in hospital no tapering was done as a matter of routine, but this is changing now, probably as a result of individuals online posting on sites such as this.  Power to the people.

 

I will follow your journey with interest.

 

Today finds me very well on 18 mg still.  I got up early at 6 am to go to a spinning class, even though I worked til 10 pm last night.  I could never have done this when on all my meds, and even on citalopram 30 mg I would have struggled.  I am definitely more active on 18 mg than 20 mg, so it must have a slowing sedentary effect, or at least for me.

 

Joy

[joy2730]

Update, I am still doing well on 18mg.  In the night I had a very bad dream, the precise details of which I can't remember, which is probably just as well.  However, I recall it was very emotionally vivid and accurate.  I am beginning to think the human brain doesn't forget much really at all, that all is stored within it whether we can actively recall it or not.

 

Experiences, even or especially emotional ones, seem to leave a 'foot print' in the brain's memory box, even though we are not aware of the brain storing that away, and even though we think we have forgotten that event, 'It has gone from my mind', that may not be true at all.  The subconscious mind appears to be very intelligent. 

 

It was a dream about how ill I have felt with depression in the past and the people I was close to at that point in my life.  It was really recalling some abuse I suffered at the time. Now I am familiar with this 'reliving of experiences in a dream' process.  When I tapered off lithium I got this a lot, a revisiting of the feelings same feelings experienced many years ago.  I googled it and others had had this too when withdrawing from various psychiatric drugs.

 

I am thinking I had this last night because of reducing the citalopram, but I am trying to make the point that this happened to me in just the same way when giving up lithium as well.  The feelings in the dream felt very real, but my mood was normal on waking up.

 

I spoke with my daughter about SSRI withdrawal yesterday on a general level.  She withdrew from sertraline at low dose after 2 years of use aged 20, and said she found it so easy to give up.  She said she has had more sickness/dizziness trying to get used to her recent contraceptive device, Mirena.  She doesn't want to go back on her usual contraceptive pill until she has stopped breastfeeding.

 

The point I am trying to make with this comparison is that a lot of modern prescriptions for whatever condition they are prescribed are capable of producing side effects.  I am also trying to illustrate that not everyone finds it difficult to stop SSRIs.

 

The more complex and effective the meds become I suppose we will have more side effects/withdrawal issues.

 

Take care everyone - don't be upset by any bad dreams, they are just that, they are not the present moment and can be a sign that the drug is leaving your system.  Feelings can hurt you physically, although they are distressing!

 

Jou

[apace41]

8 minutes ago, joy2730 said:

I am also trying to illustrate that not everyone finds it difficult to stop SSRIs.

 

Yes, Joy, the odds of a 20 year old getting off an SSRI after 2 years and not struggling are far greater than those of us that have been on meds for 20+ years and are in our middle or older ages.  Add to that the individuality of the biology we all have and there can be no real predicting of how any one person will react.  Given that there are these possibilities for all, coupled with the fact that the data shows that these meds are statistically no better than placebo, I think the general consensus of this board is that informed consent about them is something that we are all entitled to.

 

Best,

 

Andy 

[Flowers]

Hi Joy

 

I was always able to get off AD's in my younger years  without any problems at all but I had only taken them for a year or two at most to get me over bad periods of stress in my life.

 

 When I started on Citalopram my Dr told me that I had a chemical imbalance in my brain and that because I had been on AD's before I would have to take them for the rest of my life.  15 years later when I tried to get off Citalopram all hell broke lose.  But I have also known others who have been on AD's a long time and still managed to get off them without a hiccup.

 

I have vivid dreams too about circumstances that have triggered off anxiety/depression in the past. They come out of nowhere. Maybe something is going on in our subconscious to trigger these?

 

Flowers xxx

 

[PinballWizard]

Joy,

 

I have had issues with nightmares too. Just had one last night. Thank you for reminding me that they are from past memories and not my present situation. I have had therapists tell me the same thing, but hearing it from others going through the similar struggles is more effective. I always felt alone because no one around me could relate.

 

I am 43 and have been on Celexa for 10 years. The reasons for me being on Celexa are finally behind me, and I am ready to move forward with tapering off the medication. Through this site, I realize I am withdrawing from Valium even though I was not taking it regularly. My therapist told me I am not psychologically addicted but rather physically addicted. I took my last Valium a week ago and don't plan to take another one. I will wait to start my Celexa tapering until my current withdrawal symptoms subside. A little disappointing, but your experience has shown me it is better to wait than push forward before my body is ready.

 

Out of curiosity, do you have a good support system outside of this forum and your doctors?

 

PW

[joy2730]

 Hi PinballWizard

 

My GP understand my situation and is supportive of me trying to get down to 10 mg, but she has clearly said she doesn't think I will get any lower than 10 mg.  If I was really ill I would contact her, but I wouldn't do that unless I was really ill as I don't feel there is anything she can do really.

 

So support from my GP is low.

 

My daughter and my husband both support me in getting off or a lower dose but not if it interferes with my work or my life.  My daughter has a 5 month old baby and I would not want to burden her and my husband is a very old 66 and I don't want to burden him.

 

So support from my family is limited.

 

I have chosen never to disclose this problem to anyone else as I feel uncomfortable with that as I feel others do not really understand.  I know a lot of people who take ADs but wouldn't dream of trying to lower the dose and/or withdraw, but I don't feel like that.

 

So support from work/colleagues/friends is NIL.

 

I think giving up psychiatric drugs is a lonely experience, which years ago had to be done without any information, internet access or forums such as this.

 

This is the reason why sites like this are popular - people can write details while retaining anonymity behind a screen name - this way the truth is discovered.  This is why it is totally confidential when you go to see a doctor - so that you are free to say things as they truly are and an accurate diagnosis can then be made.

 

My GP has offered me counselling for some past sexual abuse dating back to when I was 12 or 13 ish but I don't feel that will help now, I feel it is too late.

 

So I don't have any counselling or therapy.

 

In conclusion, I don't have a lot of support, but I also think withdrawal is something you have to do on your own anyway, and the satisfaction of getting off a drug on your own really increases self confidence in the end.

 

How are you Pinballwizard with support?  A lot of people get a lot of support from this community and others like it and the internet in general.  Also if you get fed up you can just stay away for a few days/weeks/months and give yourself a break and no one judges you.  Some people have a bit of a social life by posting on here, they tell each other of their families and holidays, work etc. 

 

It is like we are part of an internet soap opera - we don't know what is going to happen next.  Then when we have had enough of trying to taper or are successful, individuals seem to move on naturally.

[joy2730]

Quote

 

Hi Flowers and everyone else.

 

Update

 

Last night I had another 'disgusting' horrible dream.  I dreamt I was scrubbing and old fashioned kitchen sink with a nail brush while feeling so depressed that my tears were falling into the sink all the time. The feeling of depression was really like I used to feel when very depressed.  I feel fine this morning mood wise though.

 

Last night my right arm was stinging/burning/itching in a way it has never before.

 

Also I am feeling very fat today, everytime I drop a little it does seem to have this effect on me, I am absolutely sure that this is the case for me personally - some form of paradoxical weight gain.

 

So clearly I am having a few withdrawal symptoms but I can deal with these.

 

In conclusion, bad dreams, burning skin and slight weight gain.  Mood fine.

 

Joy

 

[Flowers]

8 hours ago, joy2730 said:

Hi Flowers and everyone else.

 

Update

 

Last night I had another 'disgusting' horrible dream.  I dreamt I was scrubbing and old fashioned kitchen sink with a nail brush while feeling so depressed that my tears were falling into the sink all the time. The feeling of depression was really like I used to feel when very depressed.  I feel fine this morning mood wise though.

 

Last night my right arm was stinging/burning/itching in a way it has never before.

 

Also I am feeling very fat today, everytime I drop a little it does seem to have this effect on me, I am absolutely sure that this is the case for me personally - some form of paradoxical weight gain.

 

So clearly I am having a few withdrawal symptoms but I can deal with these.

 

In conclusion, bad dreams, burning skin and slight weight gain.  Mood fine.

 

Joy

 

Hi Joy - 

 

The dream you had sounds quite upsetting so I am glad your mood is good. Does this mean you have had dreams 2 nights running?

 

Are you still having constipation problems?  Some foods can cause bloating too. 

 

Hope your day was a good one

 

Flowers xxx

[joy2730]

Yes, bad dreams two nights running, yes to constipation again (it happens when I reduce and the reduction starts to take effect).  I have really cut down on my food today and feel a bit better weight wise for it.  It is odd that my brain remembers the feelings of depression and can reproduce them in a dream.  When I came off lithium this only happened about 4 times in total.

 

These are definite withdrawal symptoms for me which are worth documenting as it may help others. 

 

But my mood is good and stable, and am glad I am trying 18 mg again.

 

I have stopped taking my fish oil as it was making my face really greasy, and I have an oily skin anyway.  My  skin looks a lot better now, but I do have a few withdrawal symptoms.  I may try magnesium instead, but am getting round to thinking that the fewer things I take the less complicated life is!

 

Back to the laxatives again, but I can cope with this level of withdrawal symptoms and feel well in myself.

 

Another reason I know the citalopram lower dose is taking effect - I wasn't as sleepy after lunch.  Sometimes I just feel like sleeping the afternoon away, but today I didn't feel sleepy in the afternoon.

 

Are you any better today Flowers?  Or are you managing.  People seem to be reporting difficulties with ADs 4 months after withdrawing completely.  Are you 4 months off venlafaxine completely?  I don't think it is that long?  So basically, it is a long time before anyone can see they are free from trouble and have finished with withdrawal.

 

Joy

[Flowers]

39 minutes ago, joy2730 said:

Yes, bad dreams two nights running, yes to constipation again (it happens when I reduce and the reduction starts to take effect).  I have really cut down on my food today and feel a bit better weight wise for it.  It is odd that my brain remembers the feelings of depression and can reproduce them in a dream.  When I came off lithium this only happened about 4 times in total.

 

These are definite withdrawal symptoms for me which are worth documenting as it may help others. 

 

But my mood is good and stable, and am glad I am trying 18 mg again.

 

I have stopped taking my fish oil as it was making my face really greasy, and I have an oily skin anyway.  My  skin looks a lot better now, but I do have a few withdrawal symptoms.  I may try magnesium instead, but am getting round to thinking that the fewer things I take the less complicated life is!

 

Back to the laxatives again, but I can cope with this level of withdrawal symptoms and feel well in myself.

 

Another reason I know the citalopram lower dose is taking effect - I wasn't as sleepy after lunch.  Sometimes I just feel like sleeping the afternoon away, but today I didn't feel sleepy in the afternoon.

 

Are you any better today Flowers?  Or are you managing.  People seem to be reporting difficulties with ADs 4 months after withdrawing completely.  Are you 4 months off venlafaxine completely?  I don't think it is that long?  So basically, it is a long time before anyone can see they are free from trouble and have finished with withdrawal.

 

Joy

Hi Joy - lets hope you have a dreamless sleep tonight. If I dream they stay with me all day and can affect my mood if they are bad ones.

 

I can't take Magnesium as it upsets my tummy and has me running to the loo!  Maybe that is something you can try and it might help your tummy issues.

 

I have always wanted to sleep in the afternoons too on Citalopram and have always slept well at night too. 

 

I am no different today regrettably but maybe there will be a better day coming tomorrow. I am not off Ven completely. I did stop taking it for a few weeks but reinstated a small amount of 1mg twice a day on May 5  to stave off WD from that.  It did seem to help or it could have been me stabilising more from the Cit reinstatement in March.The trouble is with  all the changes I have made it is hard to see what may be the problem bringing on these waves.  It took me a long time to stabilise when I first hit WD a couple of years ago. I waited for a year before starting to taper. 

 

Just have to be patient which is not in my nature!

 

Have a peaceful night.

 

Love from Flowers xxx

 

 

[joy2730]

Hi Flowers and everyone else.

 

Sorry Flowers that you are not much better, it is complicated with both ven and cit in the picture.  I suppose the way forward is to stabilise, reduce and ultimately discontinue the ven and see where you are with the cit only.

 

A biochemist once told me that no one ever tests for combinations of drugs so once you are taking more than one drug there is no way of knowing about interactions in your own body.  At the time I was taking 4 psychiatric meds and it helped me to make up my mind to get rid of some. 

 

So not only can each individual drug cause problems on their own, but in combination they can create new problems.  Some psychiatrist even prescribe on a 'side effect' basis, ie if someone taking venlafaxine finds it too activating they will add in mirtazapine (sedating) to offset the activation.  I am not about that practice!

 

Good news, no bad dreams last night.  The bad dreams may of course not be related to the citalopram at all (especially as I had them when withdrawing from lithium too), they may be my subconscious being worried about managing with less citalopram and warning me of the consequences if I do reduce (ie depression returning).  So it my be my mind creating the nightmares and not citalopram.

 

I am definitely less sleepy on 18 mg than 20 mg.  It is quite marked but as I get used to being on 18 mg I may relax into it more, and feel more confident.

 

My mood is fine, if my mood is fine I can cope with the rest.

 

Would you say on balance Flowers your symptoms are more physical or more mental.  I suppose it may be 50% physical and 50% mental or any combination thereof.  In the care world we do pain on a  1 - 10 scale, and sometimes with dementia use a scale of 1 - 10 for emotional distress.  I am thinking of starting my own thermometer of how I am doing on the physical/mental scale.

 

You obviously don't have to answer that Flowers, it is very personal.

 

Sometimes I just think that the words we all use to describe how we are, eg not so good today, still bad, fine, a bit better, can be very vague and don't really 'nail' how we are at all.

 

Take care Flowers and everyone, although I am at my live in work, I give it a Sunday feel deliberately to replicate the weekend.

 

I am about to hit the Andrew's Liver salts for constipation which are form of magnesium anyway.

 

Have the best day you can Flowers, I am feeling quite positive.

 

Joy

[Flowers]

4 hours ago, joy2730 said:

Hi Flowers and everyone else.

 

Sorry Flowers that you are not much better, it is complicated with both ven and cit in the picture.  I suppose the way forward is to stabilise, reduce and ultimately discontinue the ven and see where you are with the cit only.

 

A biochemist once told me that no one ever tests for combinations of drugs so once you are taking more than one drug there is no way of knowing about interactions in your own body.  At the time I was taking 4 psychiatric meds and it helped me to make up my mind to get rid of some. 

 

So not only can each individual drug cause problems on their own, but in combination they can create new problems.  Some psychiatrist even prescribe on a 'side effect' basis, ie if someone taking venlafaxine finds it too activating they will add in mirtazapine (sedating) to offset the activation.  I am not about that practice!

 

Good news, no bad dreams last night.  The bad dreams may of course not be related to the citalopram at all (especially as I had them when withdrawing from lithium too), they may be my subconscious being worried about managing with less citalopram and warning me of the consequences if I do reduce (ie depression returning).  So it my be my mind creating the nightmares and not citalopram.

 

I am definitely less sleepy on 18 mg than 20 mg.  It is quite marked but as I get used to being on 18 mg I may relax into it more, and feel more confident.

 

My mood is fine, if my mood is fine I can cope with the rest.

 

Would you say on balance Flowers your symptoms are more physical or more mental.  I suppose it may be 50% physical and 50% mental or any combination thereof.  In the care world we do pain on a  1 - 10 scale, and sometimes with dementia use a scale of 1 - 10 for emotional distress.  I am thinking of starting my own thermometer of how I am doing on the physical/mental scale.

 

You obviously don't have to answer that Flowers, it is very personal.

 

Sometimes I just think that the words we all use to describe how we are, eg not so good today, still bad, fine, a bit better, can be very vague and don't really 'nail' how we are at all.

 

Take care Flowers and everyone, although I am at my live in work, I give it a Sunday feel deliberately to replicate the weekend.

 

I am about to hit the Andrew's Liver salts for constipation which are form of magnesium anyway.

 

Have the best day you can Flowers, I am feeling quite positive.

 

Joy

Hi Joy

 

Glad you didn't have any bad dreams last night. I think it may be your subconscious throwing things out at you if you have things on your mind like tapering.

 

I think you are right about the drug combination with me. I ended up having to take Xanax because Ven was too activating and nearly sent me over the edge! I would like to get off Ven   as soon as possible. Trouble is do you just go for it  regards tapering when you are feeling unstable? Maybe the Cit doesn't agree with me anymore either. All these questions!

 

My symptoms are triggered by how I feel mentally. If I feel fine mentally I can cope with anything physical. My symptoms are mainly mental ones unfortunately.

 

I am very depressed today. I tried to go out for breakfast in a little cafe by the seafront with my husband and two friends. I felt so depressed and agitated I couldn't concentrate on what they were saying.  They do know I am having problems with meds but I just had to give up after an hour. I am at home now trying to distract myself and sometimes as the day goes on I do feel a slight improvement.

 

Hope the liver salts work!

 

Flowers xxxx

 

[joy2730]

Hi Flowers and everyone

 

A good night's sleep last night and no horrid dreams, I slept well.

18 mg appears to be settling in me better now, but two things persist - constipation and a feeling that I am gaining weight due to 'something else' going on in my body rather than overeating.  I feel something akin to the after effects of over eating at Christmas, without having had the food.  It is an unnatural feeling, a chemical feeling.

 

A positive though.  A year ago I started wearing contact lenses even though I only need reading glasses as I could never find my reading glasses and write and read a lot all my day, both in my work and my leisure.  I read at the time that citalopram could cause a slight drying of the eye and of course you need juicy wet eyes to get a good suction with contacts.  Well, the difference to my contact lenses from tapering is amazing, at 20 mg I have to use some eye drops from the opticians sometimes to get better vision, but at 18 mg my contacts work much better and I haven't used any 'dry eye' drops.  How about that for an unexpected bonus?  PS  I have never worn contacts and taken 30 mg citalopram as I had already got down to 20 mg when I started using them.

 

Also, OMG, I have been reading that some think SSRI's work mainly on an advanced placebo effect.  If this is true I have been taking a placebo that has given me adverse effects without any real benefits and that is difficult to withdraw from.

 

I really hope this is not true, as I will be very cross/angry.

 

Take care everyone, hope my comments above help someone.  Joy

[apace41]

On 7/3/2017 at 3:22 PM, joy2730 said:

Also, OMG, I have been reading that some think SSRI's work mainly on an advanced placebo effect.  If this is true I have been taking a placebo that has given me adverse effects without any real benefits and that is difficult to withdraw from.

 

I really hope this is not true, as I will be very cross/angry.

 

That is very likely the case, Joy.  The drugs may help some people for a short period of time but the data certainly support the notion that any differences from placebo are clinically insignificant.  If you want to understand this issue in greater detail read Irving Kirsch's "The Emperor's New Drugs" which contains studies done by Kirsch, a Harvard professor, using the information he obtained from the FDA under Freedom of Information Act requests and compares the data in all of the tests NOT reported when SSRIs were first approved.

 

It is part of the great lie that has been perpetrated against us as the "human guinea pigs" for pharma's experiments.

 

Best,

 

Andy

Edited July 5, 2017 by apace41
Edited to change "statistically" to "clinically" for accuracy

[joy2730]

Thank you Andy - I had no idea.  I consider myself well educated university and professional training when young etc but I had no idea about this whatsoever.

 

Someone I met recently told me she had suffered a nervous breakdown 3 years ago and citalopram  had been marvelous - so was that just the placebo effect

[apace41]

3 minutes ago, joy2730 said:

Thank you Andy - I had no idea.  I consider myself well educated university and professional training when young etc but I had no idea about this whatsoever.

 

Someone I met recently told me she had suffered a nervous breakdown 3 years ago and citalopram  had been marvelous - so was that just the placebo effect

 

It is really not clear how the drugs work, Joy.  For some it is the placebo effect in total.  For some, since the drugs DO increase serotonin, they might well help some people for a very short term situation.  However, it is quite clear that the body then achieves homeostasis through the downregulation of neurotransmitters such that the benefit of the drug is very unlikely to be the driving force, and that the body's own healing and the placebo effect are what provide ongoing benefit. If left untreated, most depressions would last no more than 6 months so the recovery of most patients is what would ordinarily have happened regardless of the introduction of the drug.  So, what essentially happens in most cases is that people wind up feeling better, which they would have left to their own devices, and are on a medication that if they try to get off they have worse symptoms than they had before the medicine.

 

Best,

 

Andy

[ChessieCat]

This is a video by the author of the book Andy mentioned:

 

Video:  Irving Kirsch:  Emperor's New Drugs:  Antidepressants and the Placebo Effect (1 hour 20 minutes)

 

Antidepressants and the Placebo Effect by Irving Kirsch (link to full article)

Abstract:

Antidepressants are supposed to work by fixing a chemical imbalance, specifically, a lack of serotonin in the brain.  Indeed, their supposed effectiveness is the primary evidence for the chemical imbalance theory.  But analyses of the published data and the unpublished data that were hidden by drug companies reveals that most (if not all) of the benefits are due to the placebo effect.  Some antidepressants increase serotonin levels, some decrease it, and some have no effect at all on serotonin.  Nevertheless, they all show the same therapeutic benefit.  Even the small statistical difference between antidepressants and placebos may be an enhanced placebo effect, due to the fact that most patients and doctors in clinical trials successfully break blind.  The serotonin theory is as close as any theory in the history of science to having been proved wrong.  Instead of curing depression, popular antidepressants may induce a biological vulnerability making people more likely to become depressed in the future.

Excerpt:

How Did These Drugs Get Approved?
....
The FDA requires two adequately conducted clinical trials showing a significant difference between drug and placebo.  But there is a loophole:  there is no limit to the number of trials that can be conducted in search of these two significant trials.  Trials showing negative results simply do not count.  Furthermore, the clinical significance of the findings is not considered.  All that matters is that the results are statistically significant.
....
(NB:  emphasis in abstract and excerpt are mine)
 

Edited July 3, 2017 by ChessieCat
added additional info

[joy2730]

Thank you ChessieCat for these links.  They are very useful.

 

I have listened to the video this afternoon and read the transcript.  It is very interesting, sadly I think there is a lot of truth in it. 

 

I once really noticed the placebo effect in myself.  I was prescribed mirtazapine in hospital and 'immediately' felt better, had a shower, got dressed, put on make up and felt more cheerful, that was definitely the placebo effect, as the AD hadn't had time to do anything.  When I have gone back to higher dosages of citalopram of late in my tapering and immediately felt better that is probably the placebo effect. I am probably easily led and highly suggestible.

 

I also once had a psychiatrist who had worked in a country where it was legal to prescribe placebos unknowingly to the patient as funds were very low for mediation - patients were told they were being given an AD but in fact were given a sugar pill.  She said a lot of patients would get better with the sugar pill, but not all.  She pointed out it wasn't allowed in western medicine, but she was a big believer in the use of placebos.  I don't know her nationality or where she had practised.  I didn't like her at the time as she was anti meds and I was seeking a medical solution, now I would love to see her and have a chat. 

 

Today I have been fine, a good sleep last night, and I feel well in myself. 

 

So I am fine today on 18 mg.  I love it when my mind feels better, less sleepy.

 

Flowers, if you are reading this how are you doing today?  Flowers I heard on Radio 4 today that in the UK genetic medical mapping is expected to start taking place in the next few years, we will all have some sort of gene testing to give a more personalised level of care.  I do hope so, the sooner the better and it may be available to the NHS patients, who knows.  Apparently it is going to be the future of medicine.

 

Joy

 

 

[Flowers]

Hi Joy

 

I could hardly bear to read all the stuff about the placebo effect. Makes me want to throw all the drugs in the bin but we just can't do that can we?

 

Good to hear your eye sight is better. Maybe it's the uncomfortable feeling re the constipation making you feel full?  Maybe you need your Dr to check it out on your next visit.

 

Interesting  to hear about the genetic testing in the UK. Here, I will have to pay for the test which is expensive at around £280. It takes a month for the results to come back and if they are in Spanish I will have to get them translated or take them to my Dr who knows I am going for the test. I have to travel about an hour and a half to the clinic so am waiting for a day when I feel up to it. It is walk in between 8am and 2pm so that is handy.

 

Hope you are enjoying a few days off.

 

Flowers xxx

 

 

[PinballWizard]

Joy,

 

I am still following your posts.I am glad you have stabilized at 18 mg. Sounds like that is a good place to be for the time being. You are finally giving your body a chance to adjust. I hope your husbands hip replacement surgery goes well. My stepfather had both his hips replaced, and now my mom is on the list for her first. I guess she had sympathy pains for him. I took Tramadol and Gabapentin for lower back pain and stopped the Gabapentin cold turkey (I was on 300 mg/twice a day - I think), and the withdrawal symptoms were very unpleasant to put it mildly. Did not help that I had just had back surgery and couldn't get out of bed. I would recommend tapering off those medications as well. I thought I was losing my mind.

 

I am still planning on starting my Celexa taper in September as I am still going through withdrawals from Valium. 

 

PW

[joy2730]

Hi Flowers

 

It is interesting about the placebo effect isn't it, I had never heard of it before re ADs, I had heard about it in general medicine, and looking back the psychiatrist had hinted at it in hospital to me, but I had genuinely not linked it to my citalopram.  This was quite a shock to me.  Of course many deny the idea of the placebo effect, I guess the truth lies, as so often is the case, in the grey area in between.  There is probably a strong placebo effect but there may be some therapeutic effect. 

 

I told my husband about the placebo effect and he said to me it was a load of nonsense, that happy pills as he calls them, have helped millions of people.  Then he said when he goes to the GP to pick his pills up and mine the place is stacked with millions of pills and they must be doing some good.  I know what he means.   We can't all have been duped surely?  Not everyone, doctors the public, psychiatrists, psychologists, neurologists?

 

I know a neurologist who is also a director of our local hospital and he takes 30 mg citalopram, has Michael been duped?

 

Hope you are managing with your symptoms Flowers, and no we cant just throw these pills in the bin.  I think I will need a prescription to go to my grave with me!  If there is an after life, which I tend to believe in, I could well need someone to prescribe on the 'other side' for me.

 

Joy

[joy2730]

Hi Pinball Wizard

 

My advice to you is, ironically, the slower your taper the more chance of success you will have, and the quicker you will achieve your goal.  Ironic really, that you can try too hard, do it too quickly, and lead yourself into failure.

 

Further advice, if you start to get symptoms of withdrawal don't panic and go back to the original dose, but just go back up a little.  This has been another of my undoings.

 

Try to accept that you will have some weird physical and mental withdrawal symptoms but that they can't really hurt you unless you let them throw you of course and send you running back to the original dose.

 

I was reluctant to accept other's views of how hard all this could be, now I bow to their experience.  If many before you are reporting the need to go slow, there is probably a great deal of truth in it, collective learning is very valuable and the internet has facilitated that on forums such as this.

 

I do seem to have stabilised quite nicely on 18 mg now.  I have had a bit of a runny nose today, and felt of wave of nausea when coming out of the sauna, so the drug is still settling at 18 mg but I do feel fine.  I have to admit to feeling very tired, but then I am working hard, working out a lot, trying to cut back on my food and am enjoying my grandma role.  Apparently feeling tired is a withdrawal symptom in itself. But to be honest, all this activity is a welcome diversion.

 

Yesterday, 4 July was the anniversary of a very serious suicide attempt of mine when I was approx. 19.  It is the one day of the year that I celebrate to myself silently.  I am always so glad I survived, as although I went on to suffer such a lot, I have enjoyed my life as well, and really enjoy it now.  Yes, I may have been stuffed with psychiatric pills all these years, including pregnancy, and yes I couldn't breastfeed and yes I couldn't work a lot of those years, or only a little, but I am so glad I am here so that I can moan about citalopram now.

 

I have another silent day in my year, and that is the anniversary of my first husband's suicide, 23 August last year.  What a sad pair we were.  I would love to be able to meet with him and go for a walk/meal/talk.  Suicide is no route to go down.  Even if I don't get very far with the citalopram I am very glad I have what I have.  I hope life will be kind to be grandchild Esme. 

 

So PinballWizard, please keep posting to let us know how you are getting on.  I am sure I am following you, so I will see your posts appear.  I will be able to learn too from the experiences you post, successes and failures.  The good thing about posting is we all get the information as it happens to people, in real time, not like a book which is written with hindsight.  Real time is much more accurate and relevant.  Take care

 

Joy

 

 

 

 

[apace41]

20 minutes ago, joy2730 said:

told my husband about the placebo effect and he said to me it was a load of nonsense, that happy pills as he calls them, have helped millions of people.  Then he said when he goes to the GP to pick his pills up and mine the place is stacked with millions of pills and they must be doing some good.  I know what he means.   We can't all have been duped surely?  Not everyone, doctors the public, psychiatrists, psychologists, neurologists?

 

I know a neurologist who is also a director of our local hospital and he takes 30 mg citalopram, has Michael been duped?

 

The data is what the data is, Joy.  Whether you, your husband or your neurologist want to believe these "happy pills" are not doing nearly as much good as they are harm, and are barely doing any good as compared to placebo, the evidence is what Irving Kirsch wrote in his book and affirms in the videos.  The very fact that so many people believe in the "good" they think the pills are doing helps to create a "societal placebo effect."  When you are given the pills and you believe they are doing good because there are so many outlets telling you that is the case, they are even MORE likely to do good.  

 

Stop for a minute and realize that there is nothing wrong with the placebo effect per se.  The idea that our minds are stronger than many medicines and can correct illnesses and other conditions is something we should be championing as opposed to denigrating.  If someone had given me a sugar pill years ago instead of an antidepressant, I'd sure be a lot happier right now.

 

Don't be a lemming.  Don't believe that because Michael is a neurologist that he knows more than you do about SSRIs or anything else for that matter.  You have the benefit of "lived experience" when it comes to trying to get off the meds.  One of the things that has allowed us to get into the place that we are, individually and as a society, is the notion that "doctors know much more than we do."  That is simply not the case.

 

Best,

 

Andy

[Shep]

2 hours ago, joy2730 said:

I told my husband about the placebo effect and he said to me it was a load of nonsense, that happy pills as he calls them, have helped millions of people.  Then he said when he goes to the GP to pick his pills up and mine the place is stacked with millions of pills and they must be doing some good.  I know what he means.   We can't all have been duped surely?  Not everyone, doctors the public, psychiatrists, psychologists, neurologists?

 

In addition to the good information that Apace is posting, I'm going to tie in the rise of antidepressants that, as you quote your husband, "have helped millions of people" with the enormous rise in disability for depression, one of the  illnesses that these drugs supposedly treat. 

 

According to numerous reports from the media, including this one from Scientific America stating many people do indeed take a psychiatric drug, in fact it's  1 in 6 Americans Takes a Psychiatric Drug.   These statistics are coming from the medical community itself, including this report from the JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association), Adult Utilization of Psychiatric Drugs and Differences by Sex, Age, and Race

 

But do they work? According to the research cited in this article, there's reason for concern:

 

Quote

 

However, modern studies have found that medicated depression is much more likely to run a chronic course. Indeed, in longitudinal studies, the disability rate for those who stay on antidepressants is much higher than for the unmedicated group.

Source:  Disability and Mood Disorders in the Age of Prozac

 

 

In fact, "The tally of those who are so disabled by mental disorders that they qualify for Supplemental Security Income (SSI) or Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) increased nearly two and a half times between 1987 and 2007—from one in 184 Americans to one in seventy-six. For children, the rise is even more startling—a thirty-five-fold increase in the same two decades. Mental illness is now the leading cause of disability in children." Source:  The Epidemic of Mental Illness: Why?

 

BTW, the article I just cited was written by Dr. Marcia Angell, who served as the  editor-in-chief of the New England Journal of Medicine.She is a critic of the practices of the pharmaceutical industry, including the fact they have been ghost writing in medical journals for decades. 

 

One of the reasons for the chronic course of the illness is tardive dysphoria - El-Mallakh, 2011 Tardive dysphoria: The role of long term antidepressant use in inducing chronic depression.

 

It took decades for people to understand that smoking causes cancer and other illnesses, and even longer for the concept of second-hand smoke dangers to take root in our culture and in our medical practices. Lots of propaganda and misinformation were created, just like what's been done here with psych drugs. 

 

These "experts" have yet to understand the complexities of AD withdrawal, an illness with a withdrawal syndrome that mimics the very illness it's used to treat. 

 

People were "duped", to use your term, for the 2,000 years that blood letting was used. 

 

People can go for years getting the benefits of a benzo or SSRI and sometimes, even an anti-psychotic. As JanCarol, another moderator like to phrase it, the drugs work until the badger bites. And then an illness that's usually worse than the original illness is created. This is what is meant by the phrase, "The drugs are doing more harm than good". 

Edited July 5, 2017 by Shep
fixed typo

[joy2730]

1 hour ago, Shep said:

These "experts" have yet to understand the complexities of AD withdrawal, an illness with a withdrawal syndrome that mimics the very illness it's used to treat. 

 

Shep

 

Thank you so much for posting on my thread.  I have quoted you above because it has occurred to me today that a drug that in withdrawal can cause depression, which if reintroduced then quickly alleviates that depression (as it has with me) is a very addictive and dangerous drug, reinforcing dependency by the nature of the withdrawal syndrome.

 

I will read your links to disability tomorrow when I have more time.  The links will be interesting for me because when I was heavily medicated I made the personal decision to get off them and benefits and try to work full time and properly.  I remember thinking 'how are people well enough to work all day, where do they get their energy from, their concentration, their memory.  I thought to myself maybe they don't take as many drugs as me, in such large dosages and I was right.  The more drugs I have dropped the more I have been able to work.  The drugs were making me disabled, and getting off most of them has really helped me to return to a more productive life.  No-one ever suggested I should try this, and my GPs were actually against me trying, but I felt I was on a personal mission to find out what was what.

 

Trouble is the picture actually looks much worse the more I find out about it all.  So by trying to withdraw from citalopram I may actually be putting myself at risk of going back on benefits again as I may not be able to continue to work?  That is tough, but instinctively I feel I have to try.  I have such a grave history of mental ill health and being on disability I am sure they would happily put me back on it, saying I had relapsed!  They would probably then say I should never have tried to work and go without the drugs.  It is sobering that that could well be my future, but I will have to take that chance. 

 

I love the way this site has so many links and is so informative.  I just can't believe I have been caught up in all this, I feel like a fool.

 

Joy

[joy2730]

Hi everyone

 

Had a good night's sleep last night and went spinning this morning at 7.15 am.  I am starting to get better at spinning, understanding how to use the resistance better.  It also turns out the instructor this morning is really good friends with my son's girlfriend (we do live in a very rural area), so that added a nice personal touch.

 

I had two brain zaps on waking up - I thought I had finished with those, they were not bad though and haven't had any since.  Other than that I am good on 18 mg.  When I got the zaps I thought 'Hello my old friends', it would make sense to have them on waking up as the brain must be stressed at that point.  I also felt a little hot when having the zaps, it is all linked in really.

 

I will post again tomorrow.

 

Joy

[joy2730]

I had a lovely sleep last night, went to bed about 10 pm and straight to sleep. I woke briefly in the night following a dream about being depressed, which I can't remember now properly, but it wasn't too bad at all, got straight back to sleep and woke to the alarm at 7, so 9 good hours of sleep.  So my brain is not struggling too much on 18 mg at all, at present.  A tiny tiny bit of nausea on waking but went within minutes.

I weighed myself and am now down to my preTenerife weight which pleased me a lot as I really believe I get paradoxical weight gain when dropping dosage, I certainly get severe constipation.  Constipation now seems to be under control though now.

 

Sorry if this is too much information, but I think the details are important, especially sleep and digestion, both of which can be badly affected by depression/withdrawal.

 

At the end of my Tenerife holiday I had the nasty experience of DP/DR.  I was reading about this yesterday and apparently it is worse on a morning or when flying, which was really interesting as my worst bit of that was on the plane coming back home.  Also I had been reading Kramer's Listening to Prozac and I think that had raised my anxiety levels.  Apparently DP/DR can be triggered by anxiety.  I think I became anxious about whether I was doing the right thing is trying to reduce my citalopram.  Thank you to the site for providing such good information on DP/DR, I had never heard of it before, just like I thought SSRIs were highly effective, not addictive and completely safe.  The more I read and understand of my situation, the better and less anxious I feel (apart from reading Kramer) which can only be good.  The more I also realise how magical the human brain really is.  Like mine bounced back from well over 20 years of diazepam, and similar of lithium and sodium valproate.  It healed well after years of these drugs, and sleeping pills, which I always forget to mention and the odd use of antipsychotics (but not more than a few days now and then).

 

A question for the moderators, surely the WHO and other similar bodies should be trying to address the difficulties and work with the pharmaceutical companies to improve the lot of people who are caught up in this inadvertently, ie were not able to give informed consent to taking these drugs because they didn't have the information.  Surely ethics dictate that something should be put in place, that the reputation of the drug companies and SSRIs needs 'cleaning up' somehow so that they are prescribed and used in a more responsible manner in the future.  I guess some initiatives must be underway, I know I read a link about disability from mental health being much higher as a result of SSRI use in society rather than lower as we would expect it to be.

 

Or perhaps the issues are being swept under a carpet, breeding even more trouble for the future.

 

To conclude, I am in a good place today and my mood is stable.

 

Joy

[joy2730]

Quick update, I am feeling well on 18 mg, my head feels physically a bit different, a bit physically lighter, but it is a good feeling.  Sleep was excellent and I am eating healthily and although at work am exercising on my 'WonderCore' which I really like.  It only takes 30 mins for a workout and I feel better for it.

We have a garden pond full of tadpoles where I work,  they had become very lethargic and sad looking, I am now feeding them blood worms (dried), bits of raw liver and carrot.  They have sprung to life with a little bit of feeding.  They are my new distraction.  I look at them and it makes me feel positive.  They haven't got much going for them and there survival rate is very poor but when well fed they actually play, they are nature and nature is soothing.

 

Hope everyone is well, perhaps this time I will be able to stay at 18 mg for once and well and truly stabilised.

 

Joy

[joy2730]

Another update feeling really well today fitness class and seeing Esme.  I feel fine - have a very slight dizziness now and then and my right arm was very itchy last night so I took an antihistamine for it.  I don't understand the relationship between antihistamines allergies and SSRIS but I suspect there is one.

 

I am doing swim and sauna and spin in the morning.  My mood is super and stable.