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Altostrata

Diagnosed with MDD? Worse after antidepressants? Researcher wants to talk to you!

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Altostrata

A psychiatrist I know and respect wants to do a study on iatrogenic depression -- depression made worse or caused by antidepressants.
 
This would be for presentation in a major psychiatric conference.
 
This doctor is a specialist in "treatment-resistant depression." He suspects that many of the cases he sees may be iatrogenic. He wishes to conduct this research through interviews. The interviews are to be recorded.
 
He is in San Francisco but will Skype anywhere.
 
He would like to speak to people who have been:

1.  Diagnosed, at some point, with major depressive disorder
2.  Prescribed anti-depressant medications
3.  Responded to anti-depressant medications (i.e. went into remission with the medication/s)
4.  Took the medication for a long period of time (5+ years)
5.  Were, for one reason or another, weaned off the medication OR
6.  They discontinued the medication on their own
7.  Developed significant worsening of symptoms (anxiety, insomnia, worsening of depression, etc.)
8.  The resultant mood/anxiety symptoms are/were worse than anything previously experienced (prior to medications)
9.  Re-institution of the original medication either a) does not work or B ) is intolerable
10.  Trial of other medications proves to be intolerable or does not work
11.  Develop "treatment-resistant" depression
12.  May have had ECT or TMS
 
This young psychiatrist, whom I have met, is sincere and competent. His practice includes psychotherapy. Clearly, he seeks to learn from patients. He was trained at Harvard Medical School and the University of California, San Francisco.
 
If you meet the criteria above and wish to take part in the study, please send me your valid e-mail address with your explicit permission for the psychiatrist to contact you for the study, in a personal message on this site or through the site e-mail. Please do not post your e-mail address in this topic.

 

DEADLINE FOR YOUR PERMISSION AND CONTACT INFO IS JANUARY 15, 2015

Edited by Altostrata
added deadline

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Athena

Hi Alto,

I think this study is wonderful, and would be more than willing to participate.

 

However I am not sure I meet all the criteria. #8: I cannot say that my WD symptoms are worse than the original depression. And #9: reinstitution of the Paxil did decrease my symptoms.

 

I hope that this study is one of many more to come, and thank you again Alto for all your devotion.

 

Athena

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jayraycee

Hello, I do not meet the criteria, because I have not and will not be reinstating. Hope he finds who he needs though!

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mlrp

Forgive me clogging the thread because I do not meet the criteria (neither 3 nor 4), but this news brings tears of gratitude for the hope that this represents - that some day this iatrogenesis will be recognized.

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Altostrata

Thanks, everyone. This is a very smart doctor. He's carefully chosen his criteria to test his hypothesis, which has to do with treating "treatment-resistant depression." He will be addressing psychiatrists who are concerned with that particular condition.

 

Scientific papers need to be somewhat narrowly designed to prove or disprove a point. This does not mean he does not believe in other iatrogenic effects of psychiatric drugs.

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LexAnger

Hi Alto,

 

Although I'm not meeting the inclusion criteria literely in that I never had depression before or after Taking AD, I feel the criteria can be easily modified for his purpose to include ppl who were put on AD for other reasons like headache in my case. Giving the trust I have in you, I would like to participate to help the future awareness of the problem and prevention of more harms.

 

 

Before I sign the consent, I wonder what types of personal information this study is collecting to protect subjects identity? And how much time and committement is required from the participants? I feel it would be nice if such information along with others as appropriate can be provided. As for Skype, is that it was chosen to avoid phone number or to see intervieweer?

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Altostrata

The researcher has set his criteria. If you do not meet the first 11, please do not volunteer to be a subject. (Having had ECT or TMS is not necessary.)
 

I agree, a study of the effect of antidepressants on people who did not have "depression" to begin with would be very, very valuable. But that is not this study.

 

This is a conscientious doctor. He will explain the privacy parameters to you. (Probably, he'll send you something to sign.) 

 

He is willing to Skype with people who would find it inconvenient to visit him in San Francisco. He intends to record or videotape interviews.

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LexAnger

Thanks alto! Understand.

Hope future studies would expand the scope.

 

If #1 also considers anxiety, I may be still eligible.

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Fitby50

This is very exciting.  I'm sure studies take a long time to conduct and then write papers on, but this gives us hope that some day the medical industry may have a different view on these types of meds. and not push them so vehemently.  I wish I could help with his study, but I

only meet 1 - 8.  Please keep us up to date on his progress Alto!!

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cymbaltawithdrawal5600

I originally volunteered for this study but said that:

 

 

9.  Re-institution of the original medication either a) does not work or B ) is intolerable
10.  Trial of other medications proves to be intolerable or does not work
11.  Develop "treatment-resistant" depression

 

did not appear to fit.

 

In my case (and I wonder how many others of us have found this) re-instituting medication (like taking more of 'the hair of the dog that bit ya' to stave off a hangover) after one learns the truth about antidepressants (that they do not 'cure depression' and must be taken for the rest of your life) IS what is intolerable. Once the wool falls off one eyes one cannot ever put it back. When you can see other health problems looming (diabetes for example) if you stay on or go back on ANY of them, it is risky business indeed. You tend to think (as I do) "Well, I guess I'll just have to tough it out (depression) without them" and that makes #10 a non-starter. My resulting feelings of 'depression' after I got off the meds were far worse than ANY I had ever known before meds or when whatever med I was taking was not successful enough in blotting out my feelings.

 

I would consider that since I was diagnosed with MDD 4 different times in my life that I had (by the 3rd or 4th time) developed 'treatment resistant depression'. As in 'without treatment, depression happens again'. My fourth episode had elements of psychosis mixed in, if I am to be honest. Pretty scary.

 

My guess is a great many of us will not be eligible for this study and too bad. It would be great if a researcher would study US, those of us that know we will be going through the rest of our lives shunning chemical help for 'depression' because we now know the truth. Who's gonna help us? Certainly not Big Pharma. We are their casualties.

 

Edited to add: I have something to say about the term "treatment resistant depression". Resistant to what, chemical manipulation by the current crop of drugs, the hauling out of older ones such as the tricyclics or off label use of drugs such as ketamine  (AN ANESTHETIC FOR PETE'S SAKE!)? Or how about: those things (drugs) don't work but this does: adequate rest, a nutritious diet, avoidance of OTC drugs (think ppi's here), regular exercise, getting off the computer and getting outside, meditation and doing something about stress. Those things all work but they take a lot of initiative by the person involved and they aren't very sexy or profitable. Notice I did not say 'supplements', those can often be damaging (I am thinking of people who developed problems using 5HTP or sam-E).

 

Too much emphasis on "pill popping", not enough on good old fashioned living properly. I count myself among the guilty.

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compsports

Sorry for this off topic response but CW, I wanted to mention another thing for people to try which is light therapy.   I started trying it in the hopes of alleviating my sleep problems which obviously are not going to go away in one day.   But amazingly after starting it, my depression from lack of sleep has already greatly improved.

 

Why this isn't also offered as standard therapy vs. meds is beyond me.   But sadly, we all know the answer to that.

 

I told Alto via email that I was willing to have this psychiatrist contact me.   But I am probably not eligible.

 

Regarding reinstating medication, I tried Trazadone and Elavil for my sleep problems which didn't help at all.  After having massive hangovers the next day, I couldn't imagine being back on ADS full time.

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cymbaltawithdrawal5600

Thanks for proving my point, CS. I am sure there will be other nods of agreement out there.

 

Light therapy has been around a long time but did we seek it out or was it ever mentioned to us to try instead of meds? Nope, not in my case. That you used it in a novel way (to help with sleep) is a testament to how creative some of us can be when we look for 'off label' uses for common non-drug therapies. (And how intuitive: come up with an idea, run the experiment to prove the theory and assess the results.)

 

So yes, add light therapy to the list. And anything else I missed. They all work but are not profitable in our mainstream society.

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compsports

Thanks for proving my point, CS. I am sure there will be other nods of agreement out there.

 

Light therapy has been around a long time but did we seek it out or was it ever mentioned to us to try instead of meds? Nope, not in my case. That you used it in a novel way (to help with sleep) is a testament to how creative some of us can be when we look for 'off label' uses for common non-drug therapies. (And how intuitive: come up with an idea, run the experiment to prove the theory and assess the results.)

 

So yes, add light therapy to the list. And anything else I missed. They all work but are not profitable in our mainstream society.

It definitely was never offered as an option to me.   I think I remember reading about it but all the studies downplayed its effectivness compared to meds which I am sure was a joke.

 

Regarding using light therapy for sleep, some sleep doctors, will recommend this but do a poor job of really explaining how light therapy works.  I got the idea from finally reading about irregular sleep/wake disorder which sounds exactly like my situation.  They recommended using it 4 times a day.  Yesterday, I went outside once since it was bright and sunny and used it two other times.

 

CS

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spectio

I would love to be included in this study but I, also, see that the reinstatement criteria would not fit me.  I was fighting daily bouts of nausea that nobody could figure out the cause of,  after eleven years on Remeron.    The last ditch effort by the psychiatrist was to put me on an antipsychotic, Geodon, that made the coexisting "akathisia"  ten times worse.  I will say, though, that I was symptom free for about ten days after starting the AP.  Then things rapidly deteriorated.   I did NOT use any other AD after that.  I think I intuitively knew that drugs were a poor choice and probably were from the beginning.  Stress management, and talk therapy  would have been the better choice, if only someone had suggested that!

 

So, three years off antidepressants and I struggle with daily swings of jitteriness, low mood, dizzyness, headaches, and poor memory.   Still waking with dread and fear although I can breathe my way through the hour I experience this around 5 or 6 in the morning.  

 

Anyway, would be very open to participating if the Dr. says I would qualify.

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Heart

I haven't been on the forum in a while, but wanted to say: it was nice to be invited for the study but, I don't meet the criteria either.  CW, I'm totally with you in your feelings and in matching only numbers 1-8.

"If you ended up in the bathroom with incredible vomiting and diarrhea a little over an hour after eating the warmed over chicken salad from some buffet table, could anyone persuade you to return and eat the warmed over tuna salad because they thought that it would make you feel better?" This stuck in my head when I was really in trouble around month 9, post last pill. Whether I should have gone back to the psychiatrist's office or whether I should not have gone back - it was a mute point - I could not go back without going against every instinct within me.  

I think that it's great that there's a psychiatrist out there who wants to listen to people and collect people's stories but there are a lot of people who just can't roll the dice any more. I realize that studies need parameters; everything just always seems to tilt towards the drugs.

Meanwhile - thank you, Altostrata, for this forum for the rest of us.

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mammaP

I fit all the criteria from way back when I was first given antidepressants, except #5. I wasn't on them for very long,

the damage was done in weeks.  10 years later I was almost healed and started effexor. The biggest mistake ever. 

 

This time around I don't fit the criteria because I reinstated  a tiny dose and it helped but only because I researched it.

and came here . 

If I had trusted my doctor and tried to go back to the full dose I would definitely be in a much worse situation now because

it would have made me really ill and had to quit, suffering protracted withdrawal. I am so grateful to Alto and BT's topx sites 

for showing me the way to go. 

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Michael

Hi Alto,

 

Thanks for sending me an email about this research.  Like several others who have posted here, I don't meet the minimum requirements.  However it's good to see someone taking a scientific look at the possibilities of anti-depressant harm.

 

I ask that you post a link to the research paper when (if) it gets published or at least a notice of its publication.  Kind thanks for all of your efforts.

 

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Altostrata

Thank you, everyone.

 

Psychiatry thinks diagnoses have meaning, and this researcher is using the language and definitions of psychiatry to illustrate a discovery about Major Depressive Disorder and Treatment-Resistant Depression as his colleagues understand them.

 

The subsequent trial (and failure) of additional drugs is necessary to prove that the condition is not "relapse." We all know the Catch-22 there!

 

This is what you have to do to get research accepted and respected.

 

I know life does not fit neatly into this schema.

 

I will certainly keep you updated on this.

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Shep

Altostrata, I received an email and have responded that I would be interested in participating.

 

I started off with depression and an AD threw me into manic depression. Over the years,  I've had several reinstatements of various medications, including antidepressants. Now I have treatment resistant depression and severe depersonalization.

 

I hope to help.

 

Thank you.

 

Shep

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tonygio7

I would like to participate in this study but there's several criteria that I don't meet-- eg I've been on and off AD meds a number of times over 17 years but i was never on them for 5 years. And only once did I get worse after withdrawing-- that was when my doctor had me alternate doses of Cymbalta and taper in large reductions.  

 

Right now I'm tapering again-- off Effexor and Klonopin.  I've gone back on ADs several times out of desperation when I had a major downturn and they seemed to help but it may have been more of a placebo effect because i could see how my mood changes drastically depending on how confident I feel about my treatment and whether I'll improve. My doctors had always convinced me that the meds would make me better, so that gave me confidence and a positive mood. Now i have more and more doubts about the meds.  

 

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mammaP

Hi Tonygio, would you like to start a thread for yourself in the introductions forum? It would

be good to get to know you and how you are tapering. We view the introduction threads as case histories 

that can be seen by professionals who visit the site. It is how they will see the effects that the drugs and

withdrawal have on people. 

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Jason

Just replied to you Alto, check your email.

 

Won't be able to qualify, just like most here. So sorry to advise that. If for whatever reason he would like to contact me just to discuss my story for information, just let me know.

 

Thanks

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Altostrata

Thanks, tony and Jason.

 

To participate in the study, you MUST meet criteria 1-11 (12 is optional):

 

1.  Diagnosed, at some point, with major depressive disorder
2.  Prescribed anti-depressant medications
3.  Responded to anti-depressant medications (i.e. went into remission with the medication/s)
4.  Took the medication for a long period of time (5+ years)
5.  Were, for one reason or another, weaned off the medication OR
6.  They discontinued the medication on their own
7.  Developed significant worsening of symptoms (anxiety, insomnia, worsening of depression, etc.)
8.  The resultant mood/anxiety symptoms are/were worse than anything previously experienced (prior to medications)
9.  Re-institution of the original medication either a) does not work or B ) is intolerable
10.  Trial of other medications proves to be intolerable or does not work
11.  Develop "treatment-resistant" depression
12.  May have had ECT or TMS

 

 

If you have sent me an e-mail or message since December 1 and have not heard from me, please resend your e-mail. I have had some problems with my e-mail lately. (I've responded to all the mail and pms I got about this.)

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Azgirl

Hmmm well I meet criteria 1 through 11 , I would be happy to assist the doctor.  

 

Alto, I sent you a private email message with my email address addressing a bit more.  

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Pitykitty

Hi Alto, I do meet all the criteria except for 12. Tho in 2013 I begged the university to use ECT on me. Im glad it didnt work out. I have 25 years experience with ADs & APs. I do have a couple dumb questions b/c im having a "scattered" week. Do #s 9 & 10 mean that the study doc will reinstate meds or just wants to review ur experience? Also, is there compensation or is it voluntary? Doesnt matter b/c I want to help, but just curious. Finally, if I decide yes...can doc do email or phone convo b/c I dont have computer or skype? Duh - I forgot. How do I email u with my info? I am interested and answers will help me decide. Im sorry I didnt notice this earlier. Thank u for the opportunity and all of ur help.

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Altostrata
  • #12 is optional.
  • The doctor will not prescribe drugs, he wants case histories of drug-induced depression.
  • There is no compensation, it is voluntary.
  • You will be asked to sign a formal consent form.
  • He might do phone or e-mail interviews, Skype is not required.
  • Please send me a personal message if you wish to participate.

 

DEADLINE FOR YOUR PERMISSION AND CONTACT INFO IS JANUARY 15, 2015

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rapunzel2

That's totally my scenario! I will send you my contacts. 

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cymbaltawithdrawal5600

Hi Alto, I do meet all the criteria except for 12. Tho in 2013 I begged the university to use ECT on me. Im glad it didnt work out. I have 25 years experience with ADs & APs. I do have a couple dumb questions b/c im having a "scattered" week. Do #s 9 & 10 mean that the study doc will reinstate meds or just wants to review ur experience? Also, is there compensation or is it voluntary? Doesnt matter b/c I want to help, but just curious. Finally, if I decide yes...can doc do email or phone convo b/c I dont have computer or skype? Duh - I forgot. How do I email u with my info? I am interested and answers will help me decide. Im sorry I didnt notice this earlier. Thank u for the opportunity and all of ur help.

 

PK, please sent Alto a PM with your contact info. She does not have any info on what the study will entail. The deadline is TOMORROW, Jan. 15, 2015.

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Pitykitty

CW, hi + thank u. I did finally catch Alto & im waiting for the dr to contact me. No word yet...perhaps he's got a bushel of subjects. Have a good day :-)

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Altostrata

It may take the doctor months to interview everyone.

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erikjms

I would be extremely interested in the results of his research and in whatever he would be willing/able to share of his presentation once it is ready or done--or at whatever point the conference would not be unhappy that he shared it elsewhere. Alto, do you know if he will keep you/us updated?

 

 

 

 

 

..oh my signature is more outdated than I thought. Will fix before posting anything else.

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Altostrata

Yes, I will. The study has not started yet.

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Jennifer78

Any news on this study yet? 

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powerback
On 2014-12-01 at 3:21 PM, Altostrata said:

A psychiatrist I know and respect wants to do a study on iatrogenic depression -- depression made worse or caused by antidepressants.
...
He would like to speak to people who have been:

1.  Diagnosed, at some point, with major depressive disorder
2.  Prescribed anti-depressant medications
3.  Responded to anti-depressant medications (i.e. went into remission with the medication/s)
4.  Took the medication for a long period of time (5+ years)
5.  Were, for one reason or another, weaned off the medication OR
6.  They discontinued the medication on their own
7.  Developed significant worsening of symptoms (anxiety, insomnia, worsening of depression, etc.)
8.  The resultant mood/anxiety symptoms are/were worse than anything previously experienced (prior to medications)
9.  Re-institution of the original medication either a) does not work or B ) is intolerable
10.  Trial of other medications proves to be intolerable or does not work
11.  Develop "treatment-resistant" depression
12.  May have had ECT or TMS

without question i have iatrogenic depression .could tick yes to 1-12

Edited by scallywag
trimmed quote to relevant portion

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