☼ nz11 climbs onboard

[apace41]

NZ,

 

I guess thanks? I don't know at this point.  I know a lot of what you've posted from a 30,000 foot view but when you see the details laid out it's really painful to consider.  You just have to ask yourself, "does the greed no know bounds?"  All this is going on here in the States while our Congress is passing legislation that will NOT ALLOW states to require food companies to disclose their products as being GMO.  Our government is so far in the pocket of big Pharma, big Chem in the form of Monsanto, etc. that you quickly realize you are totally and completely on your own.  Elected officials are concerned only with lining the pockets of those who elected them and all they care about is their next million.

 

The people who care are such a minority at this point that it will be years before anything changes and, meanwhile, the battered and bloodied brains of the iatrogenically destroyed will line the streets.

 

Crappy time to be walking the Earth.

 

Andy

[Songbird]

Question: In this article is Healy describing akathisia as 'Tardive Dysthymia' . It seems to me he is.

Are these two words interchangeable, one and the same?

I think dysthymia basically means feeling down all the time, including low energy and motivation, and anhedonia. I've been through a few patches of this while tapering, with some longer patches more recently at lower doses.  It has always eased up eventually, but it does concern me as I wonder how much it will affect me as my dose gets even lower and after I'm off.  I don't want to be depressed for the rest of my life.  Having said that, dysthymia isn't as awful as akathisia, which I hope I never have again in my life.

[nz11]

The people who care are such a minority at this point that it will be years before anything changes and, meanwhile, the battered and bloodied brains of the iatrogenically destroyed will line the streets.

 

Crappy time to be walking the Earth.

 

Andy

Yep very unsafe time to be walking the earth thats for sure.

Thanks for popping in to comment in my intro thread Andy

[nz11]

 

Question: In this article is Healy describing akathisia as 'Tardive Dysthymia' . It seems to me he is.

Are these two words interchangeable, one and the same?

I think dysthymia basically means feeling down all the time, including low energy and motivation, and anhedonia. I've been through a few patches of this while tapering, with some longer patches more recently at lower doses.  It has always eased up eventually, but it does concern me as I wonder how much it will affect me as my dose gets even lower and after I'm off.  I don't want to be depressed for the rest of my life.  Having said that, dysthymia isn't as awful as akathisia, which I hope I never have again in my life.

 

Thanks for the insight on this one Songbird.

 

All this vocab confuses me at times. 5 yrs ago i didnt even now what an ssri was ...and i was taking one!!

Yep i also hope to never experience akathisia again in my life too.

 

With your slow taper you might find that you are pleasantly surprised when you get off the drug. You have been so gentle on your brain in tapering you deserve the best of safe landings. Hoping that is the case. Always a privilege to hear your comments.

[Songbird]

How have things been for you lately, NZ11?  Any improvement over time?

[nz11]

How have things been for you lately, NZ11?  Any improvement over time?

Well have to say if i had to choose one day in the last 4.75 yrs to live the rest of my life in it would be today.

 

So improvements are still ongoing albeit slowly well in the upstairs area at least and i despair at times. Apathy, chronic fatigue anhedonia seem to be the norm though. Alto, so i believe, took 9 years to recover so i am half way. Hopefully the next 4.5 yrs will be even better than this past 4.5. (definitely couldnt be worse).

 

Today i am exhausted and i cant figure out why. yet earlier today a friend asked if i would help their child with high-school maths for 1.5 hrs so i did. i figure i am exhausted just from talking. The strength of my voice has been decimated.

Been doing a few hours each day for the past three weeks volunteer builders helper-er, well ok builders sweeper upper-er is more to the truth but hey couldn't have done that even a year ago so that is something. Actually i did do it a year ago and all i could do was keep looking at the time wanting to go home and cry and sleep.

 

Keep meaning to put up some yearly updates from prior place but have put that on hold, i have an ACC review hearing in nov. for medical misadventure against the ex doc of course it will be dismissed but at least it gives me a voice for one hour on my plight. Been advised that ex-doc wont be turning up and legally he doesnt have to and ACC will be doing an audio presence only ...just great eh. I have also asked the HDC to review my dismissal they gave me and to my surprise they said they would ..not holding my breath on that one either by the end of the year i will have exhausted all avenues and agencies in which i can make a complaint. 

 

I have written to every tv channel, major radio channels, tv presenters of effexor, major journalists, major newspapers, CARM, on many occasions, pharmac NZ Listener my MP twice (what a waste of time that was), East Health Trust and 'fair go'. Did i miss anyone?? Its all fallen on deaf ears.

How do you  turn the medical profession nasty?....very easy, turn up in person and make a complaint against them and then write a letter of complaint against them! And then take it to the next level. I see it as part of my recovery therapy! Its impossible to get even so i just get angry assertive!

Sorry if thats TMI

nz11

[brassmonkey]

I think the variety of vocabulary that we deal with is one of the biggest problems we have in communications.  Not only are we dealing with the language problem of coming from so many different countries, which by the way everyone handles very well, we are dealing with things that are impossible to describe clearly and change is such subtle ways every time we talk about them.  Throw on top of that people trying to use medical terminology that we don't know the "correct" meaning of and doctors have very precise definitions for, it is a receipt of trouble.  Talking with a doctor, or any tradesman in fact, we have to avoid using their "jargon" and just tell it as it is, because they will interpret the "jargon" according to their trained definition and not our understanding of that definition.

[nz11]

Brass i see what you are saying but i hate it when the med profession decide to play Tabacco company games with us.

 

Here's an interesting thing i found:

 

Canterbury vs Spence 1972, landmark case, in  Federal Court in America.

“The patients right of self decision shapes the boundaries of the duty to reveal."

"That right can be effectively exercised only if the patient possesses enough information to enable an intelligent choice.”

“What would a reasonable patient want to know with respect to the proposed therapy and the dangers that may be inherently or potentially involved.”

A risk is considered material when a reasonable person, in what the physician knows or should know to be the patients position would be likely to attach a significance to the risk or cluster of risks in deciding whether or not to forgo the proposed therapy.

 

Translation: The doctors need to be talking our language. Still i guess a doc cant tell you if a drug is addictive if he doesnt know himself. And that i guess is the problem. . When i used to work in an office we were told it is very professional to say to someone over the phone 'i dont know but i will find out for you and get back to you.' Yet the med profession just keep winging it day in and day out.

 

Hey Brass i found your source for AAF.... (oops sorry!)

Yep i been reading Claire Weeks 'Essential help for your nerves' 2000

Here's what she says:

Weeks talks about facing (acknowledging), accepting, floating, and letting time pass (FAFL).

 

Facing means acknowledging that cure must come from inside you.

 

Accepting means 'letting go', 'going with', bending like  a willow before the wind – rolling with the punches.

 

Floating means relaxing with action.

 

Letting time pass. A Dutchman said to the Vera Brittain, (an English author) after the world war ‘Be patient with us we have to grow into our liberty. ‘And so the nervously ill person must grow into recovery. There is no electric switch no overnight cure. Weeks notes “setbacks should be expected and accepted as part of recovery.”

 

 AAF  will always be a Brassmonkey-ism to me!

 

Awesome At Flying...kinda like that one too actually.

 

'When you copy from one person thats called plagiarism, when you copy from lots of people thats called ..research!

 

Have a good one!

Doin research ..and my usual plagiarism!!

nz11

 

Quote for the day, “setbacks should be expected and accepted as part of recovery.”

 

 

 

[chia1214]

Thanks for your visit to my intro thread, nz - I replied there too, but severely botched an attempt at multi-quoting!  -- Chia

[brassmonkey]

I've never read Claire Weekes work so it can't be "plagiarism", but I heard it talked about a lot back at Prior Place and adopted (stole) it for my own.  I'm pretty sure I have given her credit for the concept from time  to time.

[nz11]

Yes i think several people kept using AAF didnt they ...it sure is useful though. And good to be reminded of.

[nz11]

Here is an interesting question:

 

You are introduced to your nice new neighbour …though nice and polite she does seem somewhat rather shy, retiring, and you notice her house is full of books. She tells you she has 9 siblings, of the 10 children 8 are nurses and 2 are librarians.

What is this persons occupation?

 

Have a guess and i will then tell you where this is going when i get a reply.

[Songbird]

I know MapleLeafGirl still gets a lot of fatigue, and I get waves of it as I'm tapering.  I'm impressed you can do high school maths, I did maths at university but can't remember any of it now.

[nz11]

Songbird have a guess at post 264 what is the occupation of the neighbour?

 

Brain goes totally blank at times. Some do sudoku i do high school algbra to keep pressure on the brain to perform!!

[Fresh]

My gut says she's a librarian NZ , although it's a 20% probability.

 

?

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

 

What is this persons occupation?

 

I am going with 'sex worker' and before you all jump on me it is not as far fetched as it seems. I searched google for the phrases in nz11's description of the neighbour and was surprised at how many google results mentioned sex. 'Lady Chatterly's Lover' even.

 

I used to love those word problems in the crossword books, would work on them for days until I got the right answer. Alas, my mind is not as nimble as it used to be and I now have a low tolerance for frustration since coming off the drugs. I have the airlines on speed dial as we speak, ready to purchase a ticket to Eketahuna to wrangle the answer out of nz if he does not reveal it soon.

[brassmonkey]

Professional Cat Lady, I know several of them.  They range from Liberians to computer programmers to makeup artists.  Having just finished watching the sixth season of "MIdsummer Murders" (only 19 seasons left to go) I will have to say Black Widow/serial killer.

[nz11]

lol

 

First of all thank you Fresh, Brassmonkey and Cymbaltawithdrawal5600 for playing the game.

 

This was a classic psychology experiment: social psych101. 

 

It was an experiment of Daniel Kahnemann and Amos Tversky in the 1970’s they got a Nobel Prize for their work in a topic called Heuristics – what happens when we are asked to make a judgement under conditions of uncertainty.

 

When given the probabilities the answer should be nurse. If you said librarian you have totally ignored the base rates probs. Ie you have judged an individual based on their similarity to a typical group. You have fallen for red hearings.

 

Freshs answer was the standard reply.

Even when we know the base rates. Another name for this is the gamblers fallacy given the toss of a coin HTTHHTTHHHHHHHH? We will automatically think '?' will be a T but the base rates haven’t changed.

 

So what you might say.

Well what if we don’t know the base rates how would we decide…we could be  fooled even more ..totally everytime a coconut!

 

Well Healy alludes to this little experiment in Pharmageddon pg 85.

He uses it to brilliantly illustrate what the drug companies have done.

They have claimed that  5 out of 10 people responded to an antidepressant.

 

But what are the base rates?

 

Healy explains: In 2006 the FDA asked companies making antidepressants to submit all placebo- controlled trials to the agency. Based on 100,000 patients who had entered into these ad trials, the data showed that 4 out of 10 people improve within a few weeks whether treated with a drug or not.

 

On the active drugs 5 out of ten responded. But of these 5 when comparing active to placebo, 4 out of 10 would have responded had they received nothing. That’s 80%.

 

So statistics from the ad trials should lead us to attribute a positive response in a patient to the placebo effect. But like the subjects who chose librarian we’re more likely to jump to the conclusion that the ad must have been the cause.

 

Healy continues:

As drug marketers know, we are all more confident with stereotypes than with  rational analysis of the probabilities of a situation.

 

When we see patients on a pill recover, probably because of powerful examples like those of penicillin and insulin, we assume the recovery has come about because of the pill. This bias may be reinforced by hearing “experts” claim that antidepressants or statins work or by seeing these claims in what are considered authoritative publications. A mythic  image of normalising serotonin levels helps increase our certainty.

 

Neither clinicians nor patients are well-equipped to make judgements based on data. Our psychology biases us against seeing what the data actually show, and this bias is aggravated by the selective publication of company trials that indicate a "positive" response to the drug and ironically by an apparatus put in place to ensure doctors adhere to the “evidence.”  

 

These factors have increasingly led to an almost automatic prescription of the latest drugs whether they are statins hypoglycaemic’s, biphosphonates or psychotropic drugs.

 

NOTE: To get these drugs on the market they did not have to be compared to an older drug; they had only to beat the placebo. (Healy p 87).

And to do that they committed fraud! Refer Gotzsche, Healy and Breggin who all talk about scientific misconduct iro the wash –in and wash out periods of trials. Eg people are taken off the drug CT put straight onto a placebo they kill themselves then that is a placebo death not noted as a drug death.

In fact Gotzsche 2013, lists the following transgressions.  fraud.

1. Suicidal events are coded as something else.
2. Selective screening for trials
3. The companies get investigators to use benzos to blunt the violent reactions that would occur
4. Run-in periods- =sci/misconduct.
5. Events after the drug is stopped are not recorded –suicides placed in placbo suicides.

[its amazing what one can do to get that 5th person over the line!]

 

Healy also talks about many things being able to influence depression rating scales (pg 82) such as nicotine, snake oil, omega 3 [i'm sure alcohol would too] have also appeared to have psychotropic properties. The fact that so many quite different drugs can also be linked to comparable benefit shows we know next to nothing about what is going on.

.............................................//........................................

 

Conclusion

Seeing someone get better on a pill then certain people will deduce the following:

 

the Brassmonkey’s of this world will conclude its because of a sadistic deviant private life,

the Cymbaltawithdrawal5600's of this world will conclude it’s because of a promiscuous private life,

and the Fresh's of this world will conclude its because of the pill.

Sorry fresh but in this case it may well be that Brassmonkey and Cymbaltawithdrawal5600 are a lot closer to the truth!

 

nz11

[nz11]

"Drug companies like GSK are aware that farmers have known for centuries to keep their herds out of fields in which the serotonin-reuptake-inhibiting St John’s wort grows as it leads to miscarriages, but the same drug companies have still manipulated doctors very successfully into herding woman into the pastures in which there serotonin reuptake inhibitors grow."

 

Healy (Pharmageddon p 250)

[brassmonkey]

I think I will change my theme song from "The Pink Panther" to "Creep". LOL

 

Very interesting article and analyses.  I have always held that statistics is "the manipulation of data to prove your point", and this really backs up that assertion. I get to work with the idea of base rates from time to time and am always surprised at how few engineers, let alone regular people understand such a basic concept. "What happens if you do nothing?".  I see you mentioned snake oil as a psychotropic, and it truly is.  ADs are just a modern adaptation of this tried and true product.  Give the people what they want and they will buy it.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

I am sick at heart to realize this is the work of my fellow human beings whose greed has no bounds. For I am sure it was the love of money behind all this and not a genuine wish to help mankind.

 

For all my intelligence, I was not smart enough to see through them.

 

I am convinced they will never see punishment 'cept that which life might deal them. But I and others suffer punishment that is rightfully theirs. You can bet those who were in on the deception will never swallow one pill.

 

 

Well done, nz!

[Songbird]

I must admit I found the question confusing!  My first thought was that you simply can't tell, as it could be either.  I didn't really think about percentages and probability.  It did occur to me that people might choose librarian based on the description.

 

There are a few issues about this study.  I think some people may interpret the findings as meaning that ADs don't really work, or work no better than placebo, but I don't think that is really what the study is saying.  I know that SSRIs worked brilliantly for me and it definitely wasn't placebo effect (some people might argue that you can't tell the difference, but I could definitely tell, as the drugs produce an unnatural-feeling high and personality changes, definitely not something I was expecting). 

 

Part of the problem with drug trials is that individual responses to meds vary widely but the analysis looks at an overall result.  The med might work brilliantly for some and terribly for others, but these individual results get evened out in the overall analysis.  Medicine has always worked with basically one physiology and it's only in recent times that individual differences are starting to be considered, particularly with advances in genetics.

 

Whether I would have recovered within a few weeks without taking them is another question, and something I have always wondered.  It's possible I might have felt worse during those weeks (and how many weeks is yet another question), but eventually recovered back to 'normal'.  It does make me think about our current society's lack of patience and demand for instant results.  If you knew you would eventually recover, would you still demand something to make life easier in the meantime?

 

But I take your point about the assumptions about what caused the improvements.  I remember having it drummed into us at uni that correlation is not the same as causation.  Also the fudging of the data you described is rampant in drug trials, and not only for psych drugs. 

 

Brass, your point about statistics reminded me of something a guy I used to work with said about his accounting studies.  I can't remember the wording he used, but basically in first year you learn how to calculate the results from the data, but by third year the question is "what would you like the result to be?".

 

And CW, I agree with you, corporate greed is everywhere - the pharma industry, food (and food additives) industry, agricultural (pesticides and fertilisers), weapons industry, energy industry (pollution, nuclear waste, etc.), clothing industry (sweatshops, etc.), you name it really.  I never used to be a conspiracy theorist, but these days I'm starting to think some of them are probably right, at least about some of it.

[nz11]

This was a post by CW to a person in a dark place...brilliantly summing it up.

 

CW that was brilliant, spot on.and telling it like it is.....as usual.

 

All of us that have experienced this have gone through the very same thing, it seems to be a hallmark of the recovery phase of withdrawal from psychoactive drugs when they are not properly tapered (and sometimes happens even with a proper taper!)

 

You do not have to have any mental 'will to live' to survive this, your body provides that for you. Every system and cell has a will to live and is 24/7/365 working toward that end. The only thing you have to do is hang on the best you can and don't do anything to endanger yourself. Unfortunately, not one of us can reach through your screen and grab you by the throat and drag you through to the other side where life is better.

 

I survived cold turkeying 3 meds and one was a very high dose of a SNRI (that kind of drug messes with 2 different neurotransmitters) not because I wanted to but because I HAD to. In my case it was because I live with my aged mother, who would not be able to care for herself if I was gone. I hung that one over my head and it prevented me from doing anything to upset that arrangement. You'll have to find some compelling reason for yourself and if you can't, then you can use your membership in this group as a reason. We all want and need you to survive, this is not a trivial sentiment, trust me.

 

You just have to trust those of us who have made it to the other side that you will make it too. Your mind is filled with stories of doom and gloom and of 'not healing' that you have gotten from reading people's threads that sound a lot like yours. That is a mistake because those people are mistaken, they WILL heal, they just cannot see it just as you cannot. For some it takes a very long time but healing is taking place every minute of the day. It just is not visible (until it is).

 

You can only help yourself now by adhering to a plan for recovery which I hope includes these things: eat 3 meals a day of whatever food you can stomach (no crap about 'I can't eat breakfast', I was the same way but I forced myself), walk slowly outside somewhere for 1/2 hour every day without fail (even in the rain or snow, use an umbrella and bundle up), drink at least 8 ounces of plain water every day, use a blue light dimmer for your internet device or special glasses, find a distracting activity and DO it as much as you have to to keep yourself from flying off into doom and gloom land (mine was computer solitaire), rest in bed for at least 8 hours a night, at the same time each night and get out of bed at the same time in the morning (do this even if you cannot sleep).

 

Stay away from drugs, even the over the counter ones. I did not touch even one aspirin for a whole year and I cut out caffeine completely too. I can now drink it again but the funny thing is that taking an ibuprofen does not do much good anymore since I stopped relying on it. I use heating pads and cold compresses for aches and such.

 

Remember, you do not have to have a will to live to stay the course, you just have to hang on for as long as it takes. My own life is beset by crap right now but I can see a tiny thread of light way off in the future. I did not have that for a very long time. We can be your light till you see yours again.

 

PS. Please do not use profanity, we have a special thread for that. You have no idea how people who are sensitized in wd react to cuss words, they are looking for help and they see that and they are upset beyond words. I asked to have your post cleansed and it was not so please just don't do it again. It is not necessary to use that kind of language to communicate depth of despair for we all know what it is like. I hope you understand.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Ah, Nz, don't encourage me  

 

(But thanks for the vote of confidence!)

[nz11]

Thought i would lock this one in too from a fellow fishing fanatic.

osk when i go flounder fishing i use a big net...you should give it a try next time you go trout fishing...could pay dividends.

 

 

 

Hello oskcajga.

 

I ask this question to you because you seem to be quite intelligent.

 

Do you think that the damage/rewiring of brain/persistent side effects/withdrawal can be seen as the damage of an illegal drug abuser?

I have read some articles about drug abusers recovering and it gives me hope that many of them recover with time.

 

thank you

 

I'm certain that people who abuse illegal drugs can end up in a similar situation as we care in.  The really frustrating part is that the level of disability that some folks are in on this forum and others is typically limited to heavy or even RECKLESS drug abusers - the sort of people who are so destitute that they use drugs every day, huff paint, pop 4 e pills, take 12 tabs of LSD simultaneously.  I've known people who have done FAR FAR FAR more drugs than 10 normal humans combined, and they recovered within 1-2 years of being "sober".   The only conclusion that I can draw from this is that illegal drugs appear to be less neurotoxic than low doses of SSRIs and neuroleptics.  Obviously not everyone survived and becomes sober, so there are many differences between the two - and my statement is just a generalization - but this demonstrates how potent and dangerous prescribed medication can be compared to illegal drug use.  One major difference between the two is that recreation drugs tend to be addicting, while prescribed medications do not (i.e., rarely do SSRI or neuroleptic drug users CRAVE the drug after discontinuation).

 

For this reason I am of the opinion that low doses of "illegal" drugs are MUCH less dangerous than any prescribed medication.

 

If that's not WTF, I'm not sure what is.

 

In drug recovery (i.e., if you go to a fancy hospital and they teach you about this stuff) they call it post acute withdrawal syndrome.  They say that it takes about 5-7 years for full recovery.  That timeline is quite consistent with the SSRI and neuroleptic withdrawal recovery timeframe.  So you can definitely look to the drug abuse literature for hope, I think there are many similarities.  That is, once you get over the ANGER that you, a law abiding, responsible, hard working adult - who followed your doctor's instructions - ended up in the same boat as a person who recklessly uses drugs on an almost daily basis. 

 

The only similarity may be that both the drug abuser and the "patient" used drugs on a daily basis - I've read that the DAILY use of the medications that we took are one of the reasons for the profound neuroadaptations that took place.  This has also been posited to explain why occasional recreational drug use doesn't cause as much damage to the brain - the brain has time to recover between doses, and the habits of a drug user tend to VARY the drug they take (even the source of the drug can vary the neurotransmitters affected) - so it's not the exact same prescription medication that acts on one very specific neurological mechanism of action every single day.

 

Just some food for thought.

 

[nz11]

Sorry just thought i would save this piece here as well.

 

There are perhaps some that claim they have had a benefit from these drugs however it is often bought at a very high price – overall more die on these drugs than on placebo, more become dependent on these drugs than on placebo and are now taking many years to taper off (7yrs for some), more become alcoholics on these drugs than on placebo more on these drugs have children born with birth defects than on placebo ( i know of several in my neighbourhood), and have many other side-effects (100,s yet a doctor will not inform you of these, and when they do occur they are called anecdotal, yet pharma have mentioned them in the PIL so you cant sue them) e.g. serious life altering sexual damage.

 

Then when you want to get off the drug you have to endure many terrifying withdrawal symptoms. (Glenmullen has listed 58, none of which i might add will be acknowledged by the medical profession, and if they are they are seriously downplayed and claimed to only last 2-3 weeks yet in reality can last for many years).

 

It would be far better to do nothing than to be exposed to these drugs.

 

Gotzsche has shown that if you wait a week then there is no difference between these drugs and placebo on the Hamilton rating scale (and you don’t have to taper you don’t have possible horrifying sexual damage you don’t have enduring drug induced psychological issues that can last for many years or even indefinitely).

 

Research has also shown that there is good reason to believe that many of those who recover without drug treatment are less likely to relapse in the long run.

[We all know what relapse is- delayed wdl and it is traumatizing and often includes but is not limited to akathisia – a manifestation not found in the natural state- a most dreadful experience and one that I reckon has taken the lives of many because it induces an overwhelming suicidality].

 

“With psychotropic medications you solve one thing for a period of time, but the next thing you know you end up with two problems. The treatment turns a period of crisis into a chronic mental illness.”

Amy Upham 2009.

 

Perhaps no one can tell you not to take these drugs just like no one can tell a pregnant woman not to take thalidomide. However I would have thought someone who was informed has a moral obligation to do so.  I sure wish someone would have told me.

 

“Within one week of taking an ssri a person can be sexually damaged and it can last forever …often the damage is not revealed until after a person comes off the drug.” Healy, Yale Symposium, 2015.

 

Another thing about withdrawal from these drugs and this is coming from my own experience, yet I know I am not alone, is that the brain will turn on you searching your past for any mistakes, misdemeanours, faults that you might have made no matter how small and insignificant, it will then persecute you, terrorize you and crucify you, filling you with guilt and taunting you to move in a self- destructive direction over them. I have lived a fairly sheltered life and yet I found this incredibly unbearable and it took all my strength and then some to survive it. I often thought at times how a person, given a difficult background could possibly have any chance to get through this. Perhaps the person doing a slow taper say five years or so will not experience this torment however my guess is the chance that you would find a doctor who can inform you and execute and monitor a 5-7plus year taper for you would be about the same chance that I have of becoming the president of North Korea. Why open yourself up to the risk of experiencing this.

 

A book i recommend is 'Psychiatric drug withdrawal' by Peter Breggin.

I would invite you to read this first before making a decision.

[Wildflower0214]

Thank you for talking about the guilt that you had during WD. I have NOT led a sheltered life. And, I have had periods where I thought that I could not survive one more minute of the agony of my mind putting me on trial.

 

I'm glad you made it through. I know I will too.

 

It was validating to read your comments about this. Thank you for sharing your experience.

[nz11]

Thanks WF for commenting in  my intro.

 

You said "I have had periods where I thought that I could not survive one more minute of the agony of my mind putting me on trial."

Yes this is exactly how it is...and it is a most terrible experience. Our own being, our brain lies to us. You will be ok WF you will make it through this too.

 

Actually Alto has alluded to this in the neuro-emotions thread

'For quite a while in withdrawal, neuro-emotion led me to memories where I embarrassed myself, made a fool or myself, or was rejected. I couldn't shake them, I was reliving them intensely over and over. The feeling of shame and worthlessness was awful. I had to make a determined effort, which wasn't always successful, to distract myself from these memories. I kept reminding myself to forgive myself for my mistakes. Then reliving these memories went away. I'm not having this problem anymore (I hope). I presume that some area of my brain was being stimulated by dysregulated neuro-hormones, and now it's recovered......Yes, it made me realize how much shame has shaped my inner life and feelings about myself. I agree, these intense feelings triggered by neuro-emotion might illuminate what always was there, the most hidden vulnerability, the deepest fear. A person has to be very strong to cope with this and not get overwhelmed.'

 

The penultimate sentence is an interesting way to look at it. 

I am not one to use the word 'demonic' but i felt i was consumed by a demonic force during this time whatever that means.(Interestingly i recall that is how either AB Tracey or Yolanda Lucire record others describing it too.) Thats how i felt at the time relentlessly being accused. I had to speak on purpose to myself over and over that i am forgiven i am forgiven. When it stopped, i thought it had stopped for good but it had simply paused and was soon back with a new accusation , it went on and on. During this time i saw the branches of a tree, the kitchen utensils, the beams in the garage and my car in most frightening ways.

 

Eventually it all just went away. Perhaps it was simply the neuro emotions healing.

[Fresh]

Hi nz , any chance you could turn down the volume on your font please?  It's making my eyes hurt    .

 

Many thanks ,

[nz11]

Sure the font and the size boxes dont have a defaut so i like to have size 18 as 14 is harder to read ...maybe its old age and my eyesight is not as good as it once was.

 

What font and size would you prefer Fresh. The 'followers' are always correct.

[AliG]

 I think you're right N.Z.  I think it was simply the "neuro - emotions healing".  To quote , - Alto -  "a person has to be very strong to cope with this and not get , overwhelmed".   "Intense feelings triggered by  neuro - emotion might illuminate what always was there, the most hidden vulnerability, the deepest fear.  ".    I'm sure we can all identify, with these feelings, that "withdrawal" seems to  "draw" from us .

[nz11]

AliG yep the experience is scary and difficult to articulate ..love to have my ex doc experience this. Do you know what i reckon ...it was this experience imo that took out Charlotte Dawson. i read between the lines in the media reports....she couldnt stop the guilt, felt like she was the worst person in the world her friends couldnt lift her out of it blah blah bah...classic symptoms in my opinion. Guess i could be wrong though. Would like to have seen her drug sig.

 

Hey Fresh i think size 14 is better .right? Actually you are right post #280 is to bright ...maybe a mod can take it back to 14 font.?

[LoveandLight]

Yes, I have heavy guilt and shame over what I've got know idea..totally crazy what these drugs do..I'm guilty for something I have no idea about!

 

Also something strange goes on with racing thoughts and replay of conversations, memories all have a sense of awful about them even stuff I know was happy and good.

[Fresh]

I totally agree - Charlotte Dawson was being "treated" for depression at the time of her suicide.  

I had it too for years - guilt about pretty much anything I thought about , which made me think I had to try harder or do something. Never worked out well.

I do like the size 14 font , but I think it's the bold lettering that makes it seem unwelcoming.  

 

I haven't  taken the time to say it , but I'm so happy for you that you started working , and I'm wondering how it's been going?  

You sound like a different man from the angry nz who was posting 6 month ago.  Your posts on other people's threads show a real empathy and tenderness that didn't used to come through.  This gives me confidence in the prospects for ongoing improvement for us all.

 

Thank you nz . . . G-d bless your little cotton sox.  

 

[LoveandLight]

Yep everything cars, branches frightening..

[nz11]

Skyler posted an mindblowing article so i want to add it to my intro for future reference

 

http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/30-million-americans-on-antidepressants-and-21-other-facts-about-americas-endless-pharmaceutical-nightmare

30 Million Americans On Antidepressants And 21 Other Facts About America’s Endless Pharmaceutical Nightmare

By Michael Snyder, on September 2nd, 2014

 

Has there ever been a nation more hooked on drugs than the United States?  And I am not just talking about illegal drugs – the truth is that the number of Americans addicted to legal drugs is far greater than the number of Americans addicted to illegal drugs. 

 

As you will read about below, more than 30 million Americans are currently on antidepressants and doctors in the U.S. wrote more than 250 million prescriptions for painkillers last year.  Sadly, most people got hooked on these drugs very innocently.  They trusted that their doctors would never prescribe something for them that would be harmful, and they trusted that the federal government would never approve any drugs that were not safe. 

 

And once the drug companies get you hooked, they often have you for life.  You see, the reality of the matter is that some of these “legal drugs” are actually some of the most addictive substances on the entire planet.  And when they start raising the prices on those drugs, there isn’t much that the addicts can do about it.  It is a brutally efficient business model, and the pharmaceutical industry guards their territory fiercely.  Very powerful people will often do some really crazy things when there are hundreds of billions of dollars at stake. 

 

The following are 22 facts about America’s endless pharmaceutical nightmare that everyone should know…

 

#1 According to the New York Times, more than 30 million Americans are currently taking antidepressants.

 

#2 The rate of antidepressant use among middle aged women is far higher than for the population as a whole.  At this point, one out of every four women in their 40s and 50s is taking an antidepressant medication.

 

#3 Americans account for about five percent of the global population, but we buy more than 50 percent of the pharmaceutical drugs.

 

#4 Americans also consume a whopping 80 percent of all prescription painkillers.

 

#5 It is hard to believe, but doctors in the United States write 259 million prescriptions for painkillers each year.  Prescription painkillers are some of the most addictive legal drugs, and our doctors are serving as enablers for millions up0n millions of Americans that find themselves hooked on drugs that they cannot kick.

 

#6 Overall, pharmaceutical drug use in America is at an all-time high.  According to a study conducted by the Mayo Clinic, nearly 70 percent of all Americans are on at least one prescription drug, and 20 percent of all Americans are on at least five prescription drugs.

 

#7 According to the CDC, approximately 9 out of every 10 Americans that are at least 60 years old say that they have taken at least one prescription drug within the last month.

 

#8 In 2010, the average teen in the United States was taking 1.2 central nervous system drugs.  Those are the kinds of drugs which treat conditions such as ADHD and depression.

 

#9 A very disturbing Government Accountability Office report found that approximately one-third of all foster children in the United States are on at least one psychiatric drug.

 

#10 An astounding 95 percent of the “experimental medicines” that the pharmaceutical industry produces are found not to be safe and are never approved.  Of the remaining 5 percent that are approved, we often do not find out that they are deadly to us until decades later.

 

#11 One study discovered that mothers that took antidepressants during pregnancy were four times more likely to have a baby that developed an autism spectrum disorder.

 

#12 It has been estimated that prescription drugs kill approximately 200,000 people in the United States every single year.

 

#13 An American dies from an unintentional prescription drug overdose every 19 minutes.  According to Dr. Sanjay Gupta, accidental prescription drug overdose is “the leading cause of acute preventable death for Americans”.

 

#14 In the United States today, prescription painkillers kill more Americans than heroin and cocaine combined.

 

#15 According to the CDC, approximately three quarters of a million people a year are rushed to emergency rooms in the United States because of adverse reactions to pharmaceutical drugs.

 

#16 The number of prescription drug overdose deaths in the United States is five times higher than it was back in 1980.

 

#17 A survey conducted for the National Institute on Drug Abuse found that more than 15 percent of all U.S. high school seniors abuse prescription drugs.

 

#18 More than 26 million women over the age of 25 say that they are “using prescription medications for unintended uses“.

 

#19 If all of these antidepressants are helping, then why are more Americans killing themselves?  The suicide rate for Americans between the ages of 35 and 64 increased by nearly 30 percent between 1999 and 2010.  The number of Americans that die by suicide is now greater than the number of Americans that die as a result of car accidents every year.

 

#20 Antidepressant use has been linked to mass shootings in America over and over and over again, and yet the mainstream media is eerily quiet about this. Is it because they don’t want to threaten one of their greatest sources of advertising revenue?

 

#21 The amount of money that the pharmaceutical industry is raking in is astronomical.  It has been reported that Americans spent more than 280 billion dollars on prescription drugs during 2013.

 

If many of these drugs were not so addictive, the pharmaceutical companies would make a lot less money.  And pharmaceutical drug addicts often don’t fit the profile of what we think a “drug addict” would look like.  For example, CNN shared the story of a 55-year-old grandmother named Cynthia Scudo that become addicted to prescription painkillers…

There is lots and lots of money to be made from addiction.  In fact, if the U.S. health care system was a totally separate nation it would actually be the 6th largest economy on the entire globe.  We are talking about piles of money larger than most people would ever dare to imagine.

For Scudo, her addiction began — as they all do — innocently enough.

She sought relief from hip pain, possibly caused by scarring from cesarean sections she had delivering several of her children.

Her then-husband recommended a physician.

“There was no physical therapy offered,” she said of the doctor’s visit. “The first reaction was, let’s give you some drugs.”

He put her on OxyContin.

By the second week, she was physically addicted.

She was popping so much of the painkiller and other drugs such as anti-anxiety Valium that they equated to a dosage for three men.

And with so much money floating around, it is quite easy for the pharmaceutical industry to buy the cooperation of our politicians and of the media.

Some time when you are watching television in the evening, consciously take note of how often a pharmaceutical commercial comes on.

It has gotten to the point where we are literally being inundated with these ads.

 

They are already making hundreds of billions of dollars, and they think that there is room for even more growth.

 

Will they ever be satisfied?