success Hibari: tapering Remeron and want to start tapering Lamictal

[Ali]

Good to hear Ali's are great!! Get completely what you say about not posting, AliG, one starts to feel like a broken record, eh!

[Hibari]

Hi Ali's and Leahy,

 

Thanks for checking in on me.  I am doing ok, not terrific but more than functional.  

 

I do feel a discouraged about the pace-I know everyone does but I have not been very accepting of how long it's taking me.  

 

I mainly feel that way because now when I take my Remeron, I feel sick.  My body feels like it's fighting the medication, which I suppose is a good thing but I don't feel good.  I don't feel that way with the Lamictal, no real issues when I take it.

 

Right now, lots of hot flashes, some sweating, anxiety and low mood in the morning.  

 

I feel I could have made bigger cuts at the beginning of my taper and regret that I didn't.    But here I am and as soon as I am stable I will begin tapering down on my Remeron. 

[Ali]

hi Hibari

 

I feel your pain. I really regret having reinstated my antidepressant at my previous dose as now it's going to take me so much longer to come off. If my doc knew enough to have been able to tell me it would take years to come off, I'm not sure I'd have stayed on them after I climbed out of the deep dark pit. "Maintenance" dose they call it. More like "Dependence" dose.

 

I am trying to tell myself that at least I am on less than I was. Anyway I hope you stabilise very soon so that you can get on with your next cut and a step closer to freedom. Keep going, you can do this.

 

Ali

[Hibari]

Thank you Ali, you too will make it through.

 

Remeron is very sedating the lower  you go and I am feeling it.  I wake up in a stupor, feeling I am sleeping my life away.  It then takes me a couple of hours to get going.  This happened when I first started taking it, I was so out of it.  I feel that way again.  Lamictal is also a drug that calms people down so it's a double whammy.  

 

I used to work out and haven't been able to for the past 4 years so I just feel flabby and blah.

 

It's one of those days where I need to complain and I also know these feelings will pass.

 

You have come down quite a bit on your Lamictal and that is good, you are making progress!

[Ali]

I don't think anyone on here minds the complaining- not that your message sounds like that. We're all in that place and there's plenty to complain about. Just some days it gets to us more.

 

Yes, lamactil is supposed to be calming. I'm already getting worked up about things so I've no idea what I'll be like without it altogether. It will probably allow the doc to superglue the bipolar II diagnosis onto my forehead.

 

No working out here either. I even tried to do some light weights at home to tone up slightly and make myself feel better, and I injured my arm! I can't really win.

 

I just wish I could sleep off my grumpiness at the moment.

[Hibari]

I cannot believe how tired I am these past few days.  I sleep in a drugged state and still am exhausted the next day.

 

I was saying to my husband that I feel like a bicycle going down the road with the brakes on.  You know those brakes that clamp onto the wheel to stop it from moving yet if you pushed the pedals really hard you could get some momentum going?  Just dragging. 

[AliG]

Hibari.   Should you perhaps  start to taper just one drug ?  That is what is recommended, anyway.  I know that you know that , and have been doing your own thing, anyway ,  but is it time to concentrate on tapering the Remeron , as it's not  agreeing with you ?

 

I mainly feel that way because now when I take my Remeron, I feel sick.  My body feels like it's fighting the medication, which I suppose is a good thing but I don't feel good.  I don't feel that way with the Lamictal, no real issues when I take it.

 

If I were you , I would hold, on the Lamictal , and keep tapering off the Remeron.  I know you are probably resistant to this idea , but it jumps out at me , when I read your posts.  In my view , it would be the sensible thing to do .

Just a thought .

Ali

[Hibari]

Hibari.   Should you perhaps  start to taper just one drug ?  That is what is recommended, anyway.  I know that you know that , and have been doing your own thing, anyway ,  but is it time to concentrate on tapering the Remeron , as it's not  agreeing with you ?

 

I mainly feel that way because now when I take my Remeron, I feel sick.  My body feels like it's fighting the medication, which I suppose is a good thing but I don't feel good.  I don't feel that way with the Lamictal, no real issues when I take it.

 

If I were you , I would hold, on the Lamictal , and keep tapering off the Remeron.  I know you are probably resistant to this idea , but it jumps out at me , when I read your posts.  In my view , it would be the sensible thing to do .

Just a thought .

Ali

Hi Ali,

 

Thank you for your gentle question/suggestion.   I had been leaning towards that myself.

 

I want to clarify my reasons for tapering the way I am because I know I have gotten suggestions to do it another way and perhaps there is a perception that I am resistant but that is not the case.  I want to write out for myself and others why I made this very conscious choice. 

 

I originally went with the taper of one medication at a time because of the recommendations on this site.  I also come to my taper with 30 years of body-mind work in my background, whether it be therapy or the many types of holistic treatments I have tried and enjoyed over the years.  I am very aware of my body and all the signals it tends to give me.  I did not take many over the counter medications or antibiotics of any kind unless it was absolutely necessary before I started on my medications.

 

How I ended taking two medications, an antidepressant and a mood stabilizer is a story in it's self and has taught me a lot about who I am.  While I am angry about the impact, I have learned a great deal about advocacy and healing that I could not have learned otherwise. 

 

The day I work up in January of 2015 and said to myself, I am over drugged came from a clear signal within myself that I needed to take an action. I then started my Remeron taper with the support of people here. 

 

During that time I did a lot of research and reading, like many people on this site, in order to find the best ways to go through what turned out to be a very tough Remeron wd.  Even doing a 10% and not touching the Lamictal did not take away from the physical and emotional wd symptoms. 

 

In my research I saw that some people were tapering more than one drug at a time, slowly and with awareness.   And from what I read here and in other places, that kind of taper felt right to me. 

 

So, just like in January when I woke up in June with the very clear signal from my body that the Lamical medication was too much at this point, I made the choice to taper both drugs at the same time.  I have done it with clear awareness of my body, mind and spirit.   

 

It has gone pretty well so far and that means I still encounter wd symptoms and have my days of despair.  Yet, I have more resiliency and strength to ride through what used to be very scary symptoms.  That comes from weekly acupuncture, meetings and support from some good friends on this site-like you Ali. 

 

These two drugs are too powerful to just be tucked in the background while I withdraw.  I know other people have had that experience but not me.  The Lamictal has never provided a stability to my Remeron wd and besides that, I did not want to keep giving my brain 200mgs of Lamictal while I took the time I needed to withdraw from Remeron.  

 

So, my head is not in the sand, I am not rebelling nor am I choosing to negate the experiences of people who have gone before me. 

 

I just trust myself as well and that is just as important as the depth of knowledge on this site.

[leahy]

Hobart,

 

This is very well written and very well thought out. I wish I were a little more tuned in to my body so I wouldn't keep throwing myself off a cliff, as my son describes it.

 

I think of you at night when the hours tick by and I feel no sleepiness. I think this may be related to how much exercise and sun I get. Today I forced myself to walk outside for three miles - which is my usual walk when I do it. I don't understand why some people would feel sleepy form this and I do not.

 

Your taper has come so far! Think of where you have been and where you are now! Spring and summer will be our friends. You are healing daily. Some days it catches up with us and we are just exhausted. Feeling tired feels like depression but it is not. You are exhausted. You are recovering. You are becoming your best self ever - by the minute. It's hard to see the forest when you are in the trees. 

 

I looked up the definition of this expression because I'm not sure why these things pop into my head. Yes, the "pop" into my head. I think that is a sign of my reuptake inhibitors repopulating and doing what the are supposed to, slowly but surely, it by inch, day by day...   

 

can't see the forest for the trees

It means that if you look at things one at a time, you might not realize that a branch of separate "trees" go together to make a "forest"

When you are too close to a situation you need to step back and get a little perspective. When you do you will notice there was a whole forest you couldn't see before because you were too close, and focusing on the trees. 
Simply that you have focused on the many details and have failed to see the overall view, impression or key point.

[Hibari]

Thank you Leahy.  I know you know this or I hope you do, your friendship has been one of the most important ones I have as I go through my wd.

I love your honesty and willingness to try things, speak your mind and be a cheerleader to others.

 

You have offered me many forest through the trees perspectives when I needed it. 

 

I have to tell you, I too laughed out loud when you said you screamed at Ted Cruz on the television because of his voice.  Sounds and light are very heightened to me at this time.   It can feel crazy-making when no one else seems to be affected. 

 

I was thinking of your sleep issues and how hard your taper has been because of the sleep deprivation you go through.  I wish there was something that could address that specific issue of being wide awake or wired up at night.  It's like the atypical response I have with Benadryl or even coffee sometimes.  I can take a nap a couple of hours after I drink two cups of coffee, have always been able to do that and I also get wired from Benadryl, which normally knocks people out.  There must be some neurotransmitter or endocrine system thing that happens.  I'm going to do some research. 

 

You are not alone Leahy and I am proud to be your friend.

 

Hibari

[leahy]

I'm proud to be your friend too, Hibari. You are a strong and resourceful woman. Soon to be free.

 

Hugs,

Leahy

[Hibari]

I just read another article in this month's Spirituality & Health that offers up the same solutions to people who are depressed.  It makes me crazy when the suggestions meditation, diet and exercised are offered as the path out of depression.   I feel like yelling at the author and doctor who is mentioned and saying, "Stop telling people who are in acute stages of depression to do stuff!"  

 

They need to receive stuff-not exert energy from an already depleted system!  All parts of the depression spectrum are not the same.  When I was acutely depressed, I tried meditating and it drove me crazy-I got no relief from it and in fact, because I was depressed and not thinking logically, I blamed myself for not doing it right.  It was only after hearing from a member on this site that their spiritual teacher said that mediation can make depression worse for some people and until they had healed more, they didn't suggest it.

 

I do think diet is huge for depression and it can make changes.  But again, when someone is in the crisis of depression, it's hard to make food choices that make sense. 

 

The same for exercise.  I used to walk my dog when I was depressed and it was so painful to be outside on beautiful days because I could not enjoy them. 

 

I think that what I needed most back then was intensive healing, acupuncture, massage, reflexology, hands on healing and sleep.

 

I know I am ranting here but it makes me so angry when those very basic suggestions are made to people who are experiencing a highly complex systems collapse.

 

I don't hear enough about giving energy and healing to people who are depressed.   It's always telling them to do something-believe me if I could have I would have.

 

How about instead, for someone in acute depression, 1 suggestion for eating and then 1 suggestion for a healing treatment?  Then build on that step by step.  Once the person is more stable, then suggest the exercise and meditation. 

 

Enough already of the pat suggestions, which for me hold subtle judgement if not followed!

[Hibari]

Sweating all the time now, it's incredible.  It's hard for me to tell the difference between menopause night sweats and these sweats-though I continue to have them off and on during the day too.  

 

I don't want to adjust my bioidentical hormones right now though they are probably being affected by my taper.

 

Any thoughts on sweating? 

[Hibari]

So did not  get a response on my sweating question above.  Did some research and am going to not touch my hormones till after I am off my meds.

 

Am in a stable period right now and will hold here a bit longer before I start micro tapering again.   My goal of being med free by mid May is not going to be a reality.   I have to just let that go and keep moving down the ladder till I get there.

 

An interesting shift for me has been that I have always love tons of coffee but now am craving more green tea.  I still have one cup of coffee in the morning and then a cup of green tea plus maybe one more cup of tea later in the day.  The tea seems to clear my head and allow me to think more clearly.  I know it has L-theanine in it, which my body responds to in a positive way.  

[ChessieCat]

Have you considered that it might be your thyroid medication?

[Hibari]

Is sweating a symptom of thyroid dysfunction?  I didn't know that.  

[ChessieCat]

I googled Armour Thyroid and found this (http://www.rxlist.com/armour-thyroid-side-effects-drug-center.htm):

 

"Contact your doctor if you experience serious side effects including allergic reactions (rash, itching, swelling [especially of the face/tongue/throat,] severe dizziness, trouble breathing), increased sweating, sensitivity to heat, mental/mood changes (nervousness, mood swings), tiredness, diarrhea, shaking (tremor), headache, shortness of breath, chest pain, fast/pounding/irregular heartbeat, swelling hands/ankles/feet, or seizures."

 

"Tell your doctor immediately if any of these unlikely but serious effects of high thyroid hormone levels occur: increased sweating, sensitivity to heat, mental/mood changes (such as nervousness, mood swings), tiredness, diarrhea, shaking (tremor), headache, shortness of breath."

 

 

I think it would be a good idea to get it checked.

[Fresh]

In the context of a fast taper and the other symptoms you're having , increased /excessive sweating is most likely a withdrawal reaction.

[Hibari]

I have been on Armour thyroid for a long time and never had the issue.  Thank you for the link Chessie.

 

It is probably wd though I did switch my progesterone from creme to pill and came down on the amount.  That was in maybe November so that is in the mix as well. 

 

I feel quite stable right now, aside from the periodic flushing and sweating so I think I will let my body settle. 

 

Thanks for both of your responses. 

[Hibari]

I am having a string of really good days. My mood has been up beat and my physical symptoms are at a minimum. It's always good to know that I can come through a wd patch and come out the other side.

 

Will hang here a bit and then start tapering both drugs again.

[leahy]

I'm so pleased to hear you are feeling well, Hibari. You have come a very long way in your journey of a very careful and well planned taper. I admire the way you monitor your taper every inch of the way, paying very close attention to how you are feeling emotionally and physically.

 

Your determination to hold when you feel well before you make another cut is a model I strive to follow.  I appreciate the way you stand back and support people without judgement.

 

Monica on Beyond meds has worked very hard to be med free also. She is smart and kind. I love her empathetic way of helping people in wd. She speaks of how important it is to not scold people for doing what they needed to do when they were in the hell of wd. 

 

​You and Monica are my heroes.

[Hibari]

I'm so pleased to hear you are feeling well, Hibari. You have come a very long way in your journey of a very careful and well planned taper. I admire the way you monitor your taper every inch of the way, paying very close attention to how you are feeling emotionally and physically.

 

Your determination to hold when you feel well before you make another cut is a model I strive to follow.  I appreciate the way you stand back and support people without judgement.

 

Monica on Beyond meds has worked very hard to be med free also. She is smart and kind. I love her empathetic way of helping people in wd. She speaks of how important it is to not scold people for doing what they needed to do when they were in the hell of wd. 

 

​You and Monica are my heroes.

Thank you Leahy! You are one of my heroe because you have encouraged me and supported me during the hardest parts of my journey. When I look back over my thread, your voice is always there when I need it.

 

You also really understood how thoughtful I was when I adequate the chose to start tapering both drugs at the same time. That has meant a lot to me.

 

We are both going to make it to a success story ending, I know it.

[Hibari]

My typos are off the charts because I don't have my laptop and am using my phone.

 

It should read "my heroes" and "when I made the choice to start tapering two drugs".

 

☺

[freespirit]

Sweating all the time now, it's incredible.  It's hard for me to tell the difference between menopause night sweats and these sweats-though I continue to have them off and on during the day too.  

 

I don't want to adjust my bioidentical hormones right now though they are probably being affected by my taper.

 

Any thoughts on sweating? 

 

Hi Hibari,

 

I'm going through the same thing right now. Way more night sweats than I've had in awhile, including right before I get into bed--that's a new one. More sweating in the daytime as well. I find this often happens spring and fall, but is more intense than before I started tapering. And just for a point of reference, same thing for a friend who has never been on AD and is about 5 years younger than me. Sometimes, it can be something other than WD. I've been thinking of exploring some herbs, but am going to hold off on that for now.

[Hibari]

Thank you Free. Yes I think it's not quite wd related, feels different. I would think that tapering has effected my endocrine system and therfore the bio identical hormones I am on.

 

So great to have your voice, even if it's brief on my thread.☺

[Hibari]

Made another cut on my Remeron, dropping from 7.2-6.4 mgs.  The usual nausea and morning anxiety have been happening since I made the cut on Friday night.  Not horrible but par for the course with my wd journey.  I have been able to work and function but I get easily overwhelmed.  My nervous system is very sensitive and I guess that's the way it will be till am completely healed.

 

I plan to stabilize on this dose and then make another cut on my Lamictal dose.

 

Still sweating at night though I think it's a bit better since I switched back to a progesterone creme and raised the dose. 

 

One foot in front of the other. 

[Hibari]

Have continued to feel better with the increase of progesterone creme.  The night sweats have diminished greatly and I will continue to see how it goes over the next month.   I now am breaking up the 200mg dose, 50-75 during the day and then the rest at bedtime.  

 

Made a small cut in my Lamictal medication last night and will continue to track how it goes. 

 

Over all feeling stable at this point and seeing that I am moving towards the finish line.    Definitely will continue with the weekly acupuncture and the L-Theanine even after I am off all meds.   Still focusing on self-care, haven't been able to add in much exercise, which used to be a big part of my life.  Walking our dog is what I have to be satisfied with at this point.  I have talked about this a lot but really hoping the Remeron muffin top will deflate as I go lower and eventually off. 

[Hibari]

Feeling the Lamictal cut-low grade nausea and minor headache for the past few days.   Thank god for ginger ale, between the sugar and the ginger it makes me feel better. 

[Hibari]

Holding steady 5 days after my Lamictal drop. Had acupuncture on Wednesday, which still continues to help. Now I mainly feel really tired. I find that even after I walk the dog in the morning, I just want to back to bed for an hour. Sometimes I can and that helps.

 

The sweating comes and goes. Usually lessens after and acupuncture treatment - my acupuncturist talks about releasing stagnation or heat during the treatment.

 

Still Taking The L-Theanine as needed.

 

Planning my next Remeron cut for sometime next weekend.

[leahy]

This is a great example of slow and steady wins the race. You continue to be an inspiration to me, Hibari. I can feel your determination. You are succeeding. It sounds like you feel better as well. I understand not necessarily great but better. You are going to have a better summer this year than last year, for sure.

 

I notice you switched back to progesterone creme. Do you find progesterone creme better than the bio identical pills? I think you when I wake up sweating at night.

 

Hugs,

L

[Hibari]

Hi Leahy,

 

Thank you.  I guess it has been slow and steady even while tapering two meds at once.  

 

I did switch back from using a bio identical progesterone pill to bio identical progesterone creme.   I have had quite a journey with hormones and part of my depression was triggered by menopause and over taxing my endocrine system.  Like you my dear friend, I am a research queen and was desperately seeking a solution to the on going sweating/flashing piece. 

 

After being on an estradial patch,  I made the choice to up my progesterone quite a bit and got my primary care doctor to prescribe micro progesterone creme from a pharmacy.  I was using between 150-200mgs nightly.  This past September I had a new gynocologist switch me from that to a 100mg bio identical pill called Promethium.  I started that in December 2015.  I would say from January till March, my sweating steadily increased.   So I switched back to the creme and brought the dose up.   My sweating has decreased-not all gone but I think wd sweating is in the mix.

I probably could have upped the pill but I kept thinking that the transdermal was more effective.

[Hibari]

Having a tough day today. Very down and pessimistic. Had to fight through nausea today and I just feel worn out by this process. I am in that state of mind whee I want to leap off my medications. I won't but this feels like it is going on forever.

[Hibari]

Still edgy and tense today.   Lots of anger and rage on the surface.

[Rachel1963]

Hi Hibari; I'm sorry you are feeling poorly right now but you will soon come through it. I posted a couple of questions on my thread and just wanted to scooch by and see how you are doing. I see you are at such a small dose now! I am so inspired by Hibari and I can't wait until I get to where you are. I am still stabilizing and getting slowly but sure better. The crying is finally letting up now and that is a relief. I'm so glad your sweating is slowing down. This menopause is a pain. I dropped the tiniest bit on my estrogen just because I wanted to feel I was doing something towards cutting back on something! Anyhow, I hope you will feel better very soon. Sending you happy thoughts...

[Hibari]

Hi Rachel, thank you.  I am feeling better-the wave of rage has passed and now I'm just tired.    Some of that is my fault in that I over did it in the last week but some of it is definitely Lamictal wd.

 

Thank you for your encouragement, I have inched my way down and it's been much slower than I ever thought. 

 

I know what you mean about the hormones-to have that in the mix complicates things.   

 

You will make it Rachel. 

[Hibari]

Hello nausea my old friend.    My Remeon wd symptoms are hitting right on schedule. 

 

I am so hoping that this extreme tiredness will lift when I am med free.