Cipro, Levaquin, Azithromycin (Z-Pack), and other antibiotics

[hennie86]

 I had a nasty reaction to Cipro when I was still using antidepressants. It was prescribed for UTI and doctor did not tell me that the drug he was prescribing was so potent stuff and what type of severe issues these drugs can cause. I got tendon pain and even walking started to hurt because my feet were so sore. At the same time my muscles started to feel weak. Then I started to get pain all over my body. I could not use all tablets I was prescribed and stopped using it after a couple of pills because the pain just got worse. I went to doctor and she said to avoid exercise when I had tendon pain. Pain lasted for a couple of months and I noticed help from magnesium. I also felt weird when I was using those tablets. Like I got suddenly really dizzy... Somehow I knew there was something wrong with those pills from the first pill and ended reading about fluoroquinolones. And was quite shocked.

 

I felt like I survived from fluoroquinolones with luck but I am not sure, because it wasnt so many months before I ended up to this withdrawal hell with multiple symptoms. Maybe Cipro has played some sort of part in it. I will never know.

 

I wouldnt touch fluoroquinolones ever again. And I couldnt because I would react badly to it, it would be a nightmare especially now when extra sensitive and being in benzo wd. It was stupid to even prescribe Cipro for UTI as a first antibiotic

 

[Giulietta]

On 8/22/2011 at 4:59 PM, wdtony said:

I was just wondering if anyone has had bad reactions to antibiotics (particularly amoxicillin) after having problems with SSRI's.

 

I realize this is several years past 2011 - but in case anyone searching this finds - I am no longer able to take amoxicillin because of allergic reactions (rash).

[Meimeiquest]

I became immediately depressed taking doxycycline last summer.  The probiotic Mood Assist from Life Extension (also on Amazon) were a big help as well as acupuncture.  I also took Nystatin tablets for a week, and I still don't think all the candida is gone but I'm ok.

[Icip]

Is there any evidence to suggest that being ‘floxed’, and having an adverse reaction from SSRIs is similar in any way? ‘Floxing’ seems to have a larger focus on actual damage than talking of SSRI-related issues.

My friend from the site contacted a ‘withdrawal support coach’, and they readily made this comparison.

Has anyone looked into this further?

 

Thanks,

 

Icip.

[Webhead21]

I'm scared to take the antibiotics because I don't want to get sick again. What should I do, what my next step?

[UnfoldingSky]

I'm in the same situation, I need a root canal and they want me to take ABs too. I'd like to know what to do as well! 

[ChessieCat]

One suggestion I would make is to get the injection which does not have adrenaline in it.  I've had dental treatment with both types and there is a huge difference in how I have felt.  When given the adrenaline injection I spend the whole time in the chair trying to calm myself down.  With the non-adrenaline injection I have felt very calm, still having to use coping techniques but not having to "fight" down the anxiety caused by the adrenaline.  The injection does not last as long but if you have a good dentist they will know how/what to do and know and can always give a "top up" if needed.

 

Regarding the antibiotics I had to take a course when I had a tooth extracted 2 years ago because there was a major infection.  I was tapering and was fine.  My symptoms may have increased a bit for a short time.

 

HOWEVER, when they clean out the canals they put something in the tooth and then put a temporary filling over it.

 

I have quite a few root canals done and I only ever had to take antibiotics AFTER I got an infection.  The ironic thing was that the dentist had said to me at the time of the initial treatment that whatever he was putting in would kill all the infection.

 

So if you are concerned about the antibiotics then check with the dentist about what they put in the tooth and if he confirms that it should stop the infection then you could always accept the script and only take them if required.

[UnfoldingSky]

Chessie were they injecting you with an antibiotic? Because I've heard they can do that, inject at the site of the tooth. 

 

Also they want me to take ABs before I have the root canal done.  What are they asking you to do Webhead, AB before or after treatment?  They may not even treat me if I don't take them so I don't know what to do.  Except maybe claim I took them and not take them lol

[ChessieCat]

3 hours ago, UnfoldingSky said:

Chessie were they injecting you with an antibiotic? Because I've heard they can do that, inject at the site of the tooth. 

 

I don't know what it was.  It was put inside the tooth after they did the first root canal treatment.

 

Possibly the reason they want you to take the AB before treatment is that they might be thinking that the AB will clear up the infection and you won't need the root canal treatment.

 

If it was me I'd be discussing it with the dentist.

[wildling]

Hello all, 

I haven’t posted in a long time. I was doing a bit better and living my life just a little bit more humanly. (Still so many symptoms though..) 

 

Then around July I started to feel weak and had some recurring symptoms. Few weeks ago I was hit with a raging UTI that also went to my vulva. First had to take 7 days of antibiotics (which I quite well tolerated) but all hell broke loose when I started flagyl comp which is used straight to the lady parts. After 3 day, I developed one of the worst episodes of panic/anxiety/terror, shaking all over, insomnia, diarrhea, sweating, catastrophic thoughts, severe brain fog and dp/dr. I though I was going to die or lose my mind.

 

I stopped immediately taking the flagyl, I haven’t taken one since yesterday and still experiencing terrible agitation, diarrhea, terror and brain fog. It is a little bit better though. 

I’m wishing that this will pass once the antibiotics are out of my system but I am TERRIFIED that this will set me back to last year when I was bed bound the whole year, I am just not strong enough to claw myself back from that, just as I had gotten a little bit better.

 

I swear medications are just pure evil, this suffering is just endless!

[wildling]

Please help, severe setback from antibiotics

 

Hi all. 

I know there are a lot of similar topics like this and one with antibiotics as well. I posted there but it was quite an old thread. I also updated my introduction topic about this.

 

But I really need help.

 

I have never been in an acute wave like this before. Never felt this SI and deep hopelessness. And this one was caused by the antibiotic Flagyl, which I only took for 3 days.

 

It’s been 6 weeks now and I barely see any progress. This is hell and I cannot do it anymore, not after I clawed myself back to life in the period of 2 years after I first stopped the SSRI-medication. I was doing SO MUCH better already, living life and enjoying food, people and hobbies. 

 

My brain and CNS feel so broken and my gut is a mess, but I cannot tolerate any probiotics at the moment, they exaggerate the symptoms x 10. The only thing I take is a low magnesium supplement. 
 

My brain feels so weird. I have this rawness, tingling, itching and “electricity” in my head and in my spine all the time. I have a burning pressure in my head, constant tinnitus, SEVERE dissociation & dp/dr accompanying the head pressure and it makes me so desperate & feels like torture. I suffer with immense hopelessness, SI, doom, fear, terror and confusion 24/7. No amount of self care or meditation makes difference, and I’ve done all of it every day. I am just rocking in my bed or in my room and crying and hopeless and so out of it. 
 

This has broken my spirit and my older parents have to take care of me and I feel SO SO bad for them because they are so worried about me.

 

What do I do? How do I know this isn’t some brain damage that the drug caused and is going to last forever? How do I know this isn’t something serious or a gut infection or brain infection? When will this be over? I am so messed up I hardly know who I am anymore because I feel so extremely disconnected to everything and it feels like a nightmare.

 

Is there anything I can take to make my brain feel better? I’ve consulted 3 different doctors and none of them can help me because they’ve never heard anything like this before. 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by ChessieCat
added topic title

[Onmyway]

Dear @wildling, this resonated with me because I have experience with Flagyl from before withdrawal. It is known to be one of the most potent antibiotics and is reserved for serious cases because of its numerous side effects. Your side effects seem in line with what is reported https://www.rxlist.com/flagyl-side-effects-drug-center.htm. You might want to get them checked but you say that you have already been to several doctors. 

 

For me Flagyl was a disaster. I took it for a giardia infection in the early 2000s and it started almost a year long constant abdominal issues which eventually resulted in a colonoscopy that came out clean. The thing that actually cleared it for me was the colonoscopy itself. I am assuming that the colonoscopy prep which at the time involved drinking almost 4 liters of laxative liquids to clear the bowels (don't remember the specific liquids here) + enemas cleared the bad bacteria that Flagyl caused to overpopulate my gut by destroying the good bacteria. Have not had gut issues since (12-13 years ago).

 

From your signature I also notice that you might have jumped off of your benzo recently or you are cutting without measuring properly. These drugs (benzos and SSRIs) are incredibly potent at low doses. Could have that been an additional stressor so you are dealing with both withdrawal and Flagyl side effects? 

 

My expectation is that you will heal from this as well, whatever the cause. As you know, our bodies, brains included, are incredibly resilient and given time, rest and good care will recover. You have personal experience from this healing having achieved some normalcy over the course of cutting the oxazepam.

 

Please keep your hopes up, 

OMW

 

[wildling]

@Onmyway Thank you for taking the time to answer me! I appreciate it very much. And for giving me hope.

 

I think I’ll need to try to drink a little bit more water although I drink plenty already and see if it would flush my body a bit more.

 

I’m still eating that small crumb, I was suppose to jump this fall but then this antibiotic reaction happened and I was advised to hold for now until the reaction subsides. I have however had pretty unstable taper for the last 2-3 months since I have not been able to measure my pills and had a time where I felt so much better that I actually forgot to take the pill few times. I am guessing there has been a lot of inter-dose withdrawal already happening. 
 

What does it mean that the benzos are potent even in the smallest of crumbs? 

 

I never got any decent help for this taper and then when I found this forum I was too tired to make any plans. It hasn’t been the most perfect taper and has taken me almost 2 years now with one reinstatement at the very beginning. I am quite conserned I have done some damage with this but fortunately my dosages have been quite small and I didn’t use them for years.
 

I wish I known that Flagyl is so toxic. None of the doctors had any idea about this reaction although I said to all of them that I had almost all of the side effects that are stated on the drug. 

 

I do hope that my body is strong enough to see this through. I have so many other issues like gut issues and low ferritin, which I’m unable to resolve right now due to the acute phase and my body being so incredibly sensitive to everything right now. 
 

I trust that if people have gotten off of much higher doses and had multiple CT’s or setbacks and still have recovered, maybe I also have a change. It just takes so much more time and willpower than we would like.
 

 

[JackieFrost]

Hello. How are you doing now?

I took flagyl and cipro about 2 and a half months ago for 10 days. And I experienced all of the things you describe and many others. Thankfully I am having some windows of feeling normal again. These drugs are terrible. Especially for people who are sensitive to them or have taken psych meds it seems.

[ChessieCat]

merged similar topics

 

[LiaJ]

General question.

 

Do all antibiotics cause setbacks for those who are tapering? I am afraid of having to take one at some point and all I hear are horror stories about antibiotics setting people back.

[ChessieCat]

There are many existing topics on SA.  Please search to see if one already exists before creating a new topic.  SA likes to keep similar information in one topic so that it is easier for members to find other members' experiences and discussion about it.

 

Use an internet search engine and add site:survivingantidepressants.org to the search term.

 

When you have an infection your body automatically tries to fight it, so even if you do not take an antibiotic your withdrawal symptoms might worsen.  If you have an infection that needs to be treated then it may be better to take an antibiotic.  If you do not get rid of the infection you could end up with a worse problem, eg if you have a tooth infection that is left untreated you might end up with an infection in the jaw bone.  However it is worthwhile doing your research about different types of antibiotics.  It is also important to complete the course of antibiotics (ie take all of the tablets prescribed by the doctor), even if you start to feel better, then it is less likely that you would end up needing to take more.  Here is SA's topic: 

 

cipro-levaquin-azithromycin-z-pack-and-other-antibiotics

[LiaJ]

2 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

There are many existing topics on SA.  Please search to see if one already exists before creating a new topic.  SA likes to keep similar information in one topic so that it is easier for members to find other members' experiences and discussion about it.

 

Use an internet search engine and add site:survivingantidepressants.org to the search term.

 

When you have an infection your body automatically tries to fight it, so even if you do not take an antibiotic your withdrawal symptoms might worsen.  If you have an infection that needs to be treated then it may be better to take an antibiotic.  If you do not get rid of the infection you could end up with a worse problem, eg if you have a tooth infection that is left untreated you might end up with an infection in the jaw bone.  However it is worthwhile doing your research about different types of antibiotics.  It is also important to complete the course of antibiotics (ie take all of the tablets prescribed by the doctor), even if you start to feel better, then it is less likely that you would end up needing to take more.  Here is SA's topic: 

 

cipro-levaquin-azithromycin-z-pack-and-other-antibiotics

Thanks CC, I did some research and found a lot of great information. It sounds like it's basically a crap shoot as far as antibiotics go, but I will avoid quinolones at all costs.  I am in the final 6 weeks of my clinicals for grad school, and I cannot afford to have a huge WD related setback with full blown akathisia and zero sleep for days on end. I am so terrified of this happening.  I always have this looming anxiety about the bottom falling out. 

[Altostrata]

16 hours ago, Altostrata said:

The ingredient in antibiotics that causes problems is the antibiotic. People often have problems with Cipro and related drugs. If you had an allergic reaction to Cipro, you will want to put that in your health record and not take drugs from the fluoroquinolone family.

 

However, if you have a urinary tract infection and it can be treated with an antibiotic, you should take the antibiotic that is matched to the bacteria causing the infection. Urinary tract infections are often treated with Macrobid (nitrofurantoin). There are several others. You should tell your doctor you may be sensitive to antibiotics in general.

 

Please use common sense to address health issues.

 

[UnfoldingSky]

I want to add...where it is reasonable to believe a mistake may have been made about your health issue, make sure they have the right diagnosis. I was led to believe by a number of dentists that I had an infection in a problematic tooth.  I later saw a specialist dentist who had a closer look and found NO infection.  Two dentists wanted me to take antibiotics ahead of the dental treatment.

 

 

 

 

[Altostrata]

Antibiotics are terribly overprescribed. If possible, a test showing bacterial infection should precede prescription.

 

(Sometimes there are emergencies where doctors take their best guess and prescribe an antibiotic before getting a positive test result. In an emergency, this is okay. If it's not an emergency, they're just being lazy.)

[wildling]

I agree 100%. 
 

My setback was caused by antibiotics for UTI, but there was never any culture done and I suspect there never was any infection to begin with. I’ve heard a lot of people tapering have had UTI kind of symptoms.

I wish I had known all of this. I wish the doctors were more educated about this. It seems so futile to almost lose ones life over doctors carelessness concerning medication safety and diagnosis. They honestly give out antibiotics like candy and then do not take responsibility of the adverse affects. 

[UnfoldingSky]

I agree they are overprescribed. I am sorry you had to go through that wildling.  Where I live it can be very hard to get them to run relevant tests. I wish we had a system in my country that allowed for people to pay out of pocket for (the cheaper) tests if they disagreed with the doctor. I have lost track of how many times they would not run a test I wanted.  It's so frustrating!

[asdf]

Amoxicillin is considered to be the most tolerated AB? Has anybody used Clindamycin without problems?

 

I had a tooth extracted 5 days ago (chronic infection under root canal that started to get worse), hoping AB is not needed. I was starting to feel better yesterday and even dentist thought I was doing fine with no signs of bad infection. But it is possible the infection is getting worse now (pain came back, slightly higher fever), so some kind on antibacterial treatment might be necessary.

Dentist prescribed Clindamycin, saying it has no interactions with my medications. This is not true of course.

 

I don´t tolerate drugs at all, nearly fainted after they injected the anesthetic. But I was OKish later and was able to take ibuprofen for pain, with some mild to moderate reactions. But I feel I am taking such a big risk with the antibiotics and want to ask for an advice. Which one would be safer option? I read that with Clindamycin the risk of Clostridium Difficile infection is higher. And Clindamycin has longer half life, so it is more difficult to squeeze it in between my own drugs. 

For me  amoxicillin seems to be slightly safer first choice...

 

I tried Pau d´Arco yesterday, it has helped some people with tooth infections. It gave me quite unpleasant reaction. Maybe I will try it again, AB is probably worse. 

 

Interactions from drugbank.com.

Amoxicillin: Amoxicillin may decrease the excretion rate of Quetiapine which could result in a higher serum level. Diazepam may decrease the excretion rate of Amoxicillin which could result in a higher serum level. The serum concentration of Magnesium can be decreased when it is combined with Amoxicillin. 

 

Clindamycin: The metabolism of Clindamycin can be decreased when combined with Diazepam. The metabolism of Quetiapine can be decreased when combined with Clindamycin. The risk or severity of neuromuscular blockade can be increased when Clindamycin is combined with Magnesium citrate

 

 

 

[ChessieCat]

VIDEO WARNING about Fluoroquinolones:  moxifloxacin, ciprofloxacin, ciprofloxacin extended release, gemifloxacin, levofloxacin and ofloxacin

 

Antibiotics with the WORST Side Effects (Dangerous Antibiotics) Fluoroquinolones

 

Youtube video by KenDBerryMD

I have included the transcript in case the video ever disappears or gets moved from its current location.  Also, some people might find reading it easier than listening to the video.

 

Transcript of video without timestamps (transcript with timestamps at bottom of post)

 

 

I shouldn't have to make this video and

you should not have to watch this video

but when the level of the average

doctor's laziness and or

incompetence reaches a certain level

then I have to reach out to you and say

hey you need to be aware of this even

though you're not a doctor and it's not

your job

this is very important this is about a

class of antibiotics that are very much

over over prescribed in the United

States and in other countries that have

a serious Black Box warning

own the package insert and that harm

thousands of patients a year that should

not be prescribed for common infections

yet still are each and every day I'm Dr

Ken Berry a family physician let me

explain what's going on to you so that

you can be prepared to protect your

yourself and your family in case your

doctor is just not willing to do the job

that they signed up to do

there are currently six different drugs

that are FDA approved in this drug class

and I'm going to put a visual up so you

can look at this maybe take a screenshot

come back and watch this again later and

write these down moxifloxacin

ciprofloxacin ciprofloxacin extended

release

jimifloxacin

levofloxacin andofloxacin these are the

fluoroquinolones

these drugs are very commonly prescribed

by primary care doctors for such such

inconsequential infections as sinus

infections bronchitis skin infections

and bladder infections urinary tract

infections now first and foremost you

should understand that the vast majority

of sinus infections and bronchitis

are caused by viruses which no

antibiotic fights or treats or improves

at all so 85 percent of the time if you

have a sinus infection or an ear

infection or a bronchial infection or a

throat infection

it's a virus no antibiotic on the planet

is going to shorten the amount of time

you're sick is going to fight the virus

is going to heal you faster the average

doctor should know this many of them

seem not to know this at all

so very commonly for a sinus infection

either Levaquin levofloxacin or Cipro

ciprofloxacin is prescribed for a sinus

infection which uh 85 of the time is

viral and the other 15 of the time if it

is bacterial

there are other less harmful less severe

less powerful antibiotics that will

treat the bacterial sinus infection just

fine without all the disastrous side

effects and complications that I'm going

to tell you about in just a minute that

come along with this drug class the same

goes for bronchitis the vast majority of

the time it's viral you don't need an

antibiotic at all in the 15 percent of

cases that are bacterial there are very

inexpensive very safe antibiotics that

will treat that bronchitis just fine

without you having all the potential

side effects that come along with the

fluoroquinolones same goes for bladder

infections and pelvic infections 85

percent of the time they're viral or

fungal uh 15 of the time they are

bacterial but you can take a much

cheaper much safer antibiotic for them

so the question becomes is why are

primary care doctors why are Internal

Medicine doctors Family Medicine doctor

years OB gyns pediatricians uh

gerontologists why are they prescribing

this basically an a nuclear bomb

when all that is needed is just a small

caliber rifle why are they doing that

well

the majority of the time it's out of

habit they've been prescribing Cipro for

bladder infections for years or they've

been prescribing levofloxacin for sinus

infection for years that's just what

they do that's the only tool that they

know how to use in the toolbox

many primary care doctors think that you

expect

to receive an antibiotic prescription if

you have some sort of infection that you

went to the doctor to get checked and

indeed that is true with some patients

they they expect a prescription for an

antibiotic and they'll get upset if they

don't get one now that does Place some

extra pressure on the primary care

doctor to prescribe an antibiotic but

that still doesn't mean that they should

and it definitely does not mean that

they should prescribe one of these

fluoroquinolones so every single drug in

this drug class has a black box warning

that the Physicians should 100 percent

know about

and should 100 of the time discuss with

you before they write the prescription

and before you accept the prescription

fill the prescription and take the

prescription so in this particular case

all of the fluoroquinolones contain a

black box warning saying that they they

could potentially cause irreversible

damage to tendons and to peripheral

nerves so uh tendonitis tendon rupture

peripheral neuropathy these things can

not only happen but they could be

permanent

very very very concerning uh if you have

myasthenia gravis then you absolutely

should never take a fluoroquinolone

unless it's given to you by a specialist

after you've had the discussion hey I

have mg are you sure I should take Cipro

uh and them say yes I understand there

is a risk but the benefits outweigh the

risks so every doctor before they give

you

one of these fluoroquinolones

they should have first of all have an

internal discussion in their own brain

whether they should be writing this

prescription or Not For What diagnosis

they've given you

but every single patient who receives

the fluoroquinolone should give informed

consent

before they take that

antibiotic and what that means is that

the doctor actually had a discussion

with you hey this has got a black black

box box warning it could cause permanent

nerve damage it could cause

permanent tendinitis I just wanted you

to be aware of that I think you need

this antibiotic do you accept the risks

of this antibiotic to which the patient

would either say uh yes or hell no and

that's what informed consent means so

how many of you guys have been given

Cipro or Levaquin or avilox and you're

like no the doctor didn't tell me there

was a black box warning no they didn't

tell me I could have permanent nerve

damage

from taking that so you were not given a

chance to give your doctor informed

consent to use that treatment on you I

think that's kind of a big deal the only

time you should be given a

fluoroquinolone and accept one from your

doctor for a sinus infection a lung

infection or a bladder infection is if

number one the doctor discussed this

with you and you gave informed consent

but and also the doctor said look there

is no other antibiotic that this

bacteria is susceptible to this is the

only one that will work or your

infection is so serious that I think it

endangers your life therefore the the

benefits of taking this fluoroquinolone

outweighs the risks otherwise

that you should never take a

fluoroquinolone in an outpatient setting

now if you're an inpatient in a hospital

especially if you're in the Intensive

Care Unit if you're close to death then

of course we're going to pull out all

the big guns as a doctor and we might

give you things that have potential

potentially significant risks

just to get the benefits that they may

give you because there may be no other

antibiotic in the pharmacy that's going

to save your life but if you're in an

outpatient setting you went to a

doctor's office or an urgent care and

they give you levofloxacin ciprofloxacin

any of the fluoroquinolones and they

don't let you give informed consent and

they don't tell you hey there's no other

drug that will fix this if basically

what happens is they're like I'm a lazy

ass doctor and I don't want to really

look anything up so I've been giving

Cipro for years for sinus infection so

that's what you're going to get that's

completely inappropriate and borderline

malpractice

so the things mentioned in the Black Box

warning are not the only disaster side

effects that the fluoroquinolones are

known for they're also known for muscle

pain muscle weakness joint pain joint

swelling

psychosis anxiety insomnia depression

Suicidal Thoughts hallucinations

and then you can see from the rest of

this chart several of the things now

keep in mind that all the

fluoroquinolones are very powerful

antibiotics and so they're basically

going to carpet bomb your gut bacteria

and so you could wind up having C

difficile Associated diarrhea or a whole

host of other gastrointestinal symptoms

from bloating to diarrhea to

constipation to gut pain to cramping

because you basically carpet bombed all

of the nice friendly bacteria in your

guts so I'm going to put the list of

medications and these are only the ones

that are FDA approved in the United

States if you're in another country

there's quite possibly other brand names

that are not on this list and there may

even be other fluoroquinolones generics

that are not on this list so you're

going to have to do your due diligence

since it's very obvious from the number

of prescriptions written

uh that that pharmacies keep a tally up

that doctors are still grossly over

prescribing the fluoroquinolones for

infections that they should never be

prescribed for so I want you to memorize

this list maybe even print this out and

keep this in your wallet or your purse

uh and then anytime you go to the doctor

with an infection when they give you an

antibiotic prescription you're going to

look on this list and see if it's one of

these and if it is you're going to have

a discussion with your doctor at that

point and say Doc why didn't you tell me

there was a black box warning for this

drug why didn't you tell me that this

could cause Suicidal Thoughts is there

not another antibiotic that you could

have given me besides Cipro or

levofloxacin is that really that's

that's the one that you're going to give

me and after that conversation I think

from that day forward your doctor will

perhaps be on his or her toes as they

should have been anyway and won't make

such a dastardly mistake again I put

links to the FDA web side about the

fluoroquinolones down in the show notes

below please be vigilant we should be

able to trust our doctors when we go to

them with a complaint but very often

we're not able to trust our doctors and

therefore you have to be more Vigilant

when you go to the doctor than you

should have to be I'm sorry about that

but I also want you to be aware this is

Dr Berry I'll see you next time

 

 

 

Transcript with timestamps:

 

 

0:00

I shouldn't have to make this video and

0:02

you should not have to watch this video

0:04

but when the level of the average

0:07

doctor's laziness and or

0:11

incompetence reaches a certain level

0:14

then I have to reach out to you and say

0:16

hey you need to be aware of this even

0:19

though you're not a doctor and it's not

0:20

your job

0:22

this is very important this is about a

0:25

class of antibiotics that are very much

0:28

over over prescribed in the United

0:30

States and in other countries that have

0:33

a serious Black Box warning

0:35

own the package insert and that harm

0:39

thousands of patients a year that should

0:42

not be prescribed for common infections

0:45

yet still are each and every day I'm Dr

0:48

Ken Berry a family physician let me

0:51

explain what's going on to you so that

0:53

you can be prepared to protect your

0:55

yourself and your family in case your

0:58

doctor is just not willing to do the job

1:01

that they signed up to do

1:03

there are currently six different drugs

1:05

that are FDA approved in this drug class

1:08

and I'm going to put a visual up so you

1:10

can look at this maybe take a screenshot

1:12

come back and watch this again later and

1:15

write these down moxifloxacin

1:17

ciprofloxacin ciprofloxacin extended

1:20

release

1:22

jimifloxacin

1:24

levofloxacin andofloxacin these are the

1:27

fluoroquinolones

1:29

these drugs are very commonly prescribed

1:32

by primary care doctors for such such

1:36

inconsequential infections as sinus

1:39

infections bronchitis skin infections

1:42

and bladder infections urinary tract

1:45

infections now first and foremost you

1:48

should understand that the vast majority

1:49

of sinus infections and bronchitis

1:53

are caused by viruses which no

1:55

antibiotic fights or treats or improves

1:58

at all so 85 percent of the time if you

2:02

have a sinus infection or an ear

2:04

infection or a bronchial infection or a

2:07

throat infection

2:09

it's a virus no antibiotic on the planet

2:13

is going to shorten the amount of time

2:14

you're sick is going to fight the virus

2:17

is going to heal you faster the average

2:19

doctor should know this many of them

2:21

seem not to know this at all

2:25

so very commonly for a sinus infection

2:29

either Levaquin levofloxacin or Cipro

2:32

ciprofloxacin is prescribed for a sinus

2:35

infection which uh 85 of the time is

2:38

viral and the other 15 of the time if it

2:40

is bacterial

2:42

there are other less harmful less severe

2:46

less powerful antibiotics that will

2:48

treat the bacterial sinus infection just

2:52

fine without all the disastrous side

2:55

effects and complications that I'm going

2:56

to tell you about in just a minute that

2:58

come along with this drug class the same

3:01

goes for bronchitis the vast majority of

3:03

the time it's viral you don't need an

3:04

antibiotic at all in the 15 percent of

3:08

cases that are bacterial there are very

3:10

inexpensive very safe antibiotics that

3:13

will treat that bronchitis just fine

3:15

without you having all the potential

3:18

side effects that come along with the

3:20

fluoroquinolones same goes for bladder

3:22

infections and pelvic infections 85

3:26

percent of the time they're viral or

3:28

fungal uh 15 of the time they are

3:30

bacterial but you can take a much

3:32

cheaper much safer antibiotic for them

3:35

so the question becomes is why are

3:38

primary care doctors why are Internal

3:40

Medicine doctors Family Medicine doctor

3:42

years OB gyns pediatricians uh

3:46

gerontologists why are they prescribing

3:48

this basically an a nuclear bomb

3:52

when all that is needed is just a small

3:56

caliber rifle why are they doing that

3:58

well

3:59

the majority of the time it's out of

4:02

habit they've been prescribing Cipro for

4:04

bladder infections for years or they've

4:06

been prescribing levofloxacin for sinus

4:10

infection for years that's just what

4:11

they do that's the only tool that they

4:14

know how to use in the toolbox

4:16

many primary care doctors think that you

4:19

expect

4:21

to receive an antibiotic prescription if

4:23

you have some sort of infection that you

4:25

went to the doctor to get checked and

4:28

indeed that is true with some patients

4:30

they they expect a prescription for an

4:33

antibiotic and they'll get upset if they

4:35

don't get one now that does Place some

4:38

extra pressure on the primary care

4:40

doctor to prescribe an antibiotic but

4:43

that still doesn't mean that they should

4:45

and it definitely does not mean that

4:48

they should prescribe one of these

4:50

fluoroquinolones so every single drug in

4:53

this drug class has a black box warning

4:57

that the Physicians should 100 percent

5:00

know about

5:01

and should 100 of the time discuss with

5:05

you before they write the prescription

5:08

and before you accept the prescription

5:10

fill the prescription and take the

5:12

prescription so in this particular case

5:15

all of the fluoroquinolones contain a

5:17

black box warning saying that they they

5:20

could potentially cause irreversible

5:23

damage to tendons and to peripheral

5:27

nerves so uh tendonitis tendon rupture

5:31

peripheral neuropathy these things can

5:33

not only happen but they could be

5:35

permanent

5:36

very very very concerning uh if you have

5:41

myasthenia gravis then you absolutely

5:43

should never take a fluoroquinolone

5:46

unless it's given to you by a specialist

5:48

after you've had the discussion hey I

5:51

have mg are you sure I should take Cipro

5:54

uh and them say yes I understand there

5:57

is a risk but the benefits outweigh the

6:00

risks so every doctor before they give

6:03

you

6:04

one of these fluoroquinolones

6:07

they should have first of all have an

6:10

internal discussion in their own brain

6:11

whether they should be writing this

6:13

prescription or Not For What diagnosis

6:15

they've given you

6:16

but every single patient who receives

6:18

the fluoroquinolone should give informed

6:22

consent

6:23

before they take that

6:25

antibiotic and what that means is that

6:27

the doctor actually had a discussion

6:29

with you hey this has got a black black

6:31

box box warning it could cause permanent

6:34

nerve damage it could cause

6:36

permanent tendinitis I just wanted you

6:40

to be aware of that I think you need

6:42

this antibiotic do you accept the risks

6:45

of this antibiotic to which the patient

6:47

would either say uh yes or hell no and

6:51

that's what informed consent means so

6:53

how many of you guys have been given

6:55

Cipro or Levaquin or avilox and you're

6:58

like no the doctor didn't tell me there

7:00

was a black box warning no they didn't

7:02

tell me I could have permanent nerve

7:03

damage

7:04

from taking that so you were not given a

7:08

chance to give your doctor informed

7:10

consent to use that treatment on you I

7:13

think that's kind of a big deal the only

7:15

time you should be given a

7:17

fluoroquinolone and accept one from your

7:20

doctor for a sinus infection a lung

7:23

infection or a bladder infection is if

7:26

number one the doctor discussed this

7:28

with you and you gave informed consent

7:29

but and also the doctor said look there

7:32

is no other antibiotic that this

7:34

bacteria is susceptible to this is the

7:36

only one that will work or your

7:40

infection is so serious that I think it

7:42

endangers your life therefore the the

7:45

benefits of taking this fluoroquinolone

7:48

outweighs the risks otherwise

7:51

that you should never take a

7:53

fluoroquinolone in an outpatient setting

7:56

now if you're an inpatient in a hospital

7:58

especially if you're in the Intensive

8:00

Care Unit if you're close to death then

8:02

of course we're going to pull out all

8:04

the big guns as a doctor and we might

8:06

give you things that have potential

8:08

potentially significant risks

8:11

just to get the benefits that they may

8:13

give you because there may be no other

8:15

antibiotic in the pharmacy that's going

8:18

to save your life but if you're in an

8:19

outpatient setting you went to a

8:21

doctor's office or an urgent care and

8:23

they give you levofloxacin ciprofloxacin

8:26

any of the fluoroquinolones and they

8:29

don't let you give informed consent and

8:31

they don't tell you hey there's no other

8:32

drug that will fix this if basically

8:35

what happens is they're like I'm a lazy

8:37

ass doctor and I don't want to really

8:39

look anything up so I've been giving

8:40

Cipro for years for sinus infection so

8:43

that's what you're going to get that's

8:45

completely inappropriate and borderline

8:47

malpractice

8:49

so the things mentioned in the Black Box

8:51

warning are not the only disaster side

8:54

effects that the fluoroquinolones are

8:56

known for they're also known for muscle

8:59

pain muscle weakness joint pain joint

9:02

swelling

9:03

psychosis anxiety insomnia depression

9:07

Suicidal Thoughts hallucinations

9:10

and then you can see from the rest of

9:13

this chart several of the things now

9:14

keep in mind that all the

9:16

fluoroquinolones are very powerful

9:18

antibiotics and so they're basically

9:21

going to carpet bomb your gut bacteria

9:24

and so you could wind up having C

9:26

difficile Associated diarrhea or a whole

9:29

host of other gastrointestinal symptoms

9:32

from bloating to diarrhea to

9:34

constipation to gut pain to cramping

9:36

because you basically carpet bombed all

9:39

of the nice friendly bacteria in your

9:42

guts so I'm going to put the list of

9:44

medications and these are only the ones

9:46

that are FDA approved in the United

9:48

States if you're in another country

9:50

there's quite possibly other brand names

9:52

that are not on this list and there may

9:55

even be other fluoroquinolones generics

9:58

that are not on this list so you're

10:00

going to have to do your due diligence

10:02

since it's very obvious from the number

10:05

of prescriptions written

10:08

uh that that pharmacies keep a tally up

10:10

that doctors are still grossly over

10:12

prescribing the fluoroquinolones for

10:15

infections that they should never be

10:17

prescribed for so I want you to memorize

10:19

this list maybe even print this out and

10:22

keep this in your wallet or your purse

10:24

uh and then anytime you go to the doctor

10:27

with an infection when they give you an

10:29

antibiotic prescription you're going to

10:30

look on this list and see if it's one of

10:32

these and if it is you're going to have

10:34

a discussion with your doctor at that

10:36

point and say Doc why didn't you tell me

10:38

there was a black box warning for this

10:39

drug why didn't you tell me that this

10:41

could cause Suicidal Thoughts is there

10:44

not another antibiotic that you could

10:46

have given me besides Cipro or

10:48

levofloxacin is that really that's

10:50

that's the one that you're going to give

10:51

me and after that conversation I think

10:54

from that day forward your doctor will

10:56

perhaps be on his or her toes as they

10:59

should have been anyway and won't make

11:03

such a dastardly mistake again I put

11:06

links to the FDA web side about the

11:09

fluoroquinolones down in the show notes

11:11

below please be vigilant we should be

11:14

able to trust our doctors when we go to

11:16

them with a complaint but very often

11:19

we're not able to trust our doctors and

11:21

therefore you have to be more Vigilant

11:24

when you go to the doctor than you

11:26

should have to be I'm sorry about that

11:28

but I also want you to be aware this is

11:31

Dr Berry I'll see you next time

 

 

[Elaine5]

I’d always get super agitated and feel angry and anxious on prednisone for allergies/infections as a kid. 
 

Does this have connection to agitation/akithisia/other bad reactions to psych meds? 

[Vasherr]

I am currently researching antibiotics as there is a chance that I will have to take something to cure H Pylori (I have tried almost everything that had some clinical efficacy shown in studies, but sadly nothing seems to work) and I have found a possible reason why floxies and us react so badly to Metronidazole, and by proxy to any nitroimidazole antibiotic.

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/11927654_Inhibition_of_monoamine_oxidase_by_metronidazole

 

Every serotonergic in its drug info sheet has an adnotation to absolutely avoid taking any monoamine oxydase inhibitor with it, from what I've understood Metronidazole inhibited MAO by 90% so for sensitised people it seems to be a death sentence. MAO inhibition was due to imidazoline rings binding to receptor sites in the brain as all nitroimidazoles cross blood brain barrier, so I presume every antibiotic of this group is extremely risky.

 

Furazolidone also inhibits MAO:

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7470738/

 

Research is on chickens but I doubt that it has no such effect in humans.

 

Here is some more on other nitrofurans:

 

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00997076

 

There were some that didn't inhibit MAO "Only those nitrofuran derivatives, which contain a hydrazine moiety that also inhibited the enzyme, were MAO inhibitors. The same was true for DAO; both enzymes were inhibited irreversibly" so I would think that caution is required.

 

David Healy thinks that tetracyclines are SRI's, I haven't found any research on this, but there are some doxycycline horror stories on Rxisk, but no other tetracyclines, from this group only doxycycline crosses the blood brain barrier, so maybe this is the cause.

 

For people with H Pylori, there are many natural ways to eradicate the bacterium, but the efficacy is moderate, at most 65% reported for combination of PPI and L Reuteri probiotic in one study, in others probiotics have at most a 30% eradication rate.

 

As to antibiotic therapy for H Pylori so to not go off topic there is a HDDT therapy, short for High Dose Dual Therapy, consisting of high doses of PPI and Amoxicillin, the problem with this approach is that high efficacy (>90%) is reported mainly in China, in Europe efficacy is moderate around 60%, I have found only two studies from Germany with higher eradication rate:

 

83,8% per protocol (means people that took most of their meds, probably more than 90%)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12950604/

This one is 4x40mg omeprazole + 4x750mg Amoxicillin daily, very high dose of PPI, which can be a problem due to CYP450 inhibitory actions of PPI's:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22648560/

Study is on CYP2C19 as this enzyme is inhibited the most, but there are some weaker effects on other enzymes, it has to be taken into account as all H Pylori treatments have PPI in them so sadly there is no other way.

 

91% per protocol

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8273795/

This is really interesting one as it has standard doses of PPI with either Amoxicillin IV 3x1g (with 93% eradication rate) or 6x500mg orally, so it is possible that eradication rate is higher with more frequent oral dosing. IV is another beast as it bypasses 1st pass metabolism, so I presume it stays longer so dosing 6 times is not necessary.

 

And as a curiosity I can add last one with IV therapy, but only for 3 days, which could be easier to soldier through than 14 days oral therapy

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12069699/

Efficacy is a little iffy as they've gotten good results with patients with duodenal ulcers, but moderate with gastric ulcers (87,5% vs 63,6%)

 

Hope this post will help someone, somewhere, sometime, if anyone wants to get more info on these natural methods studies which I have mentioned PM me :)

 

Wishing us a lifelong window!

V.

[Vasherr]

@ElaineBenes5

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8801186/#:~:text=Prednisone%2C the prodrug of prednisolone,%2C behavioral%2C and cognitive changes.

"Prednisone, the prodrug of prednisolone, has been implicated as the cause of neuropsychiatric symptoms such as depression, mania, agitation, delirium, dementia, psychosis, and many other affective, behavioral, and cognitive changes."

 

Yeah, I think we have some people who were prescribed psych drugs due to unrecognised reaction to steroids. But it is a little off-topic in antibiotics thread.

[Elaine5]

I grew up using a lot of antibiotics for very silly ailments that they were largely overkill for. Since this ordeal, I’ve been using salt water soaks for minor cuts, especially those on hands/fingers, and salt water gargles. Preventative and mild germ killer. It’s been helpful because in the past, I would have used Neosporin or else even taken antibiotics for some cuts that became irritated. 

[draggin49]

I know for most dental work amoxicillin is the go to . I’m on 0.5 mg lorazepam 4x a day , they called in 500mg amoxicillin. 
becauee I’m on lorazepam as mentioned I think I’d rather opt for maybe doing 500mg twice a day . They had said take 4x a day but the place that filled isn’t my normal pharmacy with all my meds on file it was the nearest pharmacy . so I’m assuming they said 4x a day @500mg because they were thinking of a person on no additional meds. 
 

Hopefully I can get some input from others on lorazepam who had to use amoxicillin. 
drug interaction thing online said no interaction but my regular pharmacist said there can be interactions with lorazepam at high amoxicillin amounts per day . 
so I’m kinda unsure what to think/do. Ugh. I wanna get this infection taken care of following my dental work yesterday but don’t want to create a big mess either 
 

[Erimus]

Antibiotics:

Dental work:

 

If you click on the site search function you can search for keywords in all areas or in certain areas of the website. I, for example, put antibiotics in the search function in the symptoms and self care topics. 

[Gridley]

On 1/18/2023 at 3:59 PM, draggin49 said:

input from others on lorazepam who had to use amoxicillin. 

Back when I was on Lorazepam, I used Amoxicillin (on more than one occasion, I think) without any problems.

[MilitzaV]

I was prescribed this for vaginosis. I did not start taking it. I am very scared. Is there an alternative I should ask for? 

Also, I searched for this topic. Again, this site confuses me and I only found some old conversations between someone and another from 2010-no helpful info for me. 

Can anyone help me? What do I tell my OBGYN? They already think I am crazy because I just have a lot of anxiety and especially health anxiety. 

[Gigi66]

Hello,  I am being treated for Lyme disease and I am on antibiotics.  My depression has become worst.  I am tapering currently and at a hold right now.  Can antibiotics disrupt everything or is there other things going on?

[windchime]

Hi, 👋 hoping for some guidance... does anyone know if topical antibiotics have set people back?

 

I have horrific cystic acne from lithium and my Dr has prescribed topical clyndamicin in addition to Spironolactone that I'm already on. I've used it before but wasnt in WD.

The clyndamicin effects on my skin were not amazing but I'm desperate for any extra help I can get for the acne. 

 

I can't further reduce lithium yet. 

 

my other option is accutane or birth control which I am trying to avoid. 

 

It's severe all over lower face and neck and ive stopped all socialising because of it. 😭 

 

Thank you x 

[MilitzaV]

I did some topical antibitoics and had NO problems at all. But thats just my experience. I have been off klonopin for 18 months, and tapered all of my other medications prior to the klon taper.