Robert99: trying to get off of paxil, on 20 years, at 5mgs now

[Sebas]

On 8/13/2023 at 9:11 PM, Robert99 said:

L-theanine

I would recommend not to use l-theanine or any other amino acid due to probable conflict with paxil. They both have impact on neurotransmitters and anxiety levels. Also stay away from alcohol, caffein/thein, chocolate even 1st months after reaching zero. Same goes for SAMe. Goodluck Sebas

[Robert99]

I was on a longevity protocol. I’ve scaled way back on everything. Was taking around 40 supps. 

 

l theanine really seems to help take the edge off when I’m anxious. Currently taking 100 - 200mgs a day as needed. So low dosage. I’m also taking Thorne aminos. I think they make me feel pretty good. I havnt seen any research saying these would interact. But it’s certainly possible. 

Also taking multi, nac, fish oil, probiotics, vit d, zinc, boron (to address low hormones), coq10, magnesium, flax, probably a few things I’m not remembering. 
 

appreciate you responding. Willing to look at anything I’m doing to improve things.

 

I think a lot of my anxiety is health based and I have been having very bad allergy symptoms since beginning of May so thinking that may be the issue. I’m on multiple inhalers and nasal sprays too. I’ve read that some of what I’m taking can increase anxiety. They say I have non allergic rhinitis and asthma. 
 

I cut caffeine and anything that speeds me up around eight years ago because it’s all triggers for anxiety/panic. I used to drink coffee all day and energy drinks. Now I can’t even have a sip of coffee without it causing anxiety. 

[Robert99]

Things still very rough even at .8mgs which I’ve been at for a few weeks now. Still dealing with panic attacks. Trying to hold in there but it’s effecting work/family life.
This is making me think of going on larger dose or switching to something else that’s supposed to be easier to come off of. I have an appointment next week to talk about options. Just wanting to feel semi normal at this point.
Appreciate any advice on where to go from here. 

[LostInCanada]

Hi @Robert99 sorry you are struggling. Could you please update your signature?  Wow you are at 0.8 mg of Paxil. That is so impressive. What percentage of taper were you doing up to now and how often. Such a miserable drug I know. At present I am only able to drop 0.4% every couple weeks if I am lucky.

I recently attended a seminar of Mark Horowitz. He said straight up crossover to another drug does not work. You still have withdrawal from the current drug and then side effects from the new drug. 
The member Erell on here did a crossover from Paxil to Prozac and had 15-16 months of horror. She has finally stabilized. One of the moderators Go2zero did a crossover to Prozac and said it was the wise decision he made. 
 

On 6/9/2024 at 10:58 AM, Robert99 said:

I’m on multiple inhalers and nasal sprays too.

Can you tell us which ones and what the active drugs are?
 

 

On 6/9/2024 at 10:58 AM, Robert99 said:

I cut caffeine

That’s good. Also no alcohol, msg, artificial sweeteners, green tea, chocolate, sodium nitrates (processed meats), cbd oil, too much sugar.

37 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

think of going on larger dose

You just recently increased your dose. It can take up to a month to feel the full effect. More is not better. You definitely would not want to cause kindling. Might be a good idea to just hold and let things settle. 

Have you been able to do some CBT? I did an online/zoom course. I also found Claire Weekes’ book Hope and Help for Your Nerves really great. She is also on YouTube.

[LostInCanada]

@Robert99

This is a quote from Erell today about whether she would recommend a switch:

"It's difficult to answer this question, as my opinion is inevitably heavily influenced by my experience, which consists of a failed switch between two antidepressants, and therefore the experience of a too rapid withdrawal from paroxetine (which I can't recommend).
So I don't see myself recommending a switch, because while a switch can work, it can also lead to a lot of suffering, and in our current state of knowledge we can't determine if it will work or not, for whom and why. "

 

 

[Robert99]

@LostInCanada Thanks so much for posting. Sometimes its easy to feel alone with these symptoms as I see friends and family and they are living their lives and feeling good. I am the bread winner and have been very successful in business and feel like a shadow of my formal self at the moment just trying to figure out how to maintain and get through this. 

I'm taking Advair & Albuterol inhalers, Advair daily in AM, Albuterol only as needed (which is maybe once or twice a month). I do flonase twice per day AM and PM (been on flonase around 10 years). Those are my only prescriptions besides the paxil liquid. 

 

I have cut down on all supplements and currently only taking; fish oil, magnesium, zinc, probiotic, boron (trying to bring hormone levels up), multi, vit d, aminos, creatine and collagen. 

 

Agree on all the things to cut out you mentioned. I used to love tea and wish I could drink it. I have decaf green but can't even do that at the moment when it seems everything is an anxiety trigger. 

 

I tapered down to .18 as of beginning of May from 1.2mgs in Aug '22. I would drop 10% every few months or as soon as I was feeling good. I think that is another reason why I'm so upset as I am going backwards after two years of work tapering (and feeling relatively good). I now feel like when I first tried to go off eight years ago. A lot of the same feelings. 

 

I agree on holding the dose and probably not switching. Sometimes feeling desperate like I will try anything to feel normal. I thought maybe I saw some switch to lexapro as its supposed to be easier to get off of? I need to research more. 

 

I have been having this fluttering in my throat the last two days, so that's a new one. Tired all the time, panic'y, I love to work out but my body is sore all the time and takes too long to heal now. 

The issue is with my current work and family role I have lots of responsibility and hard to take it easy (I'm trying to). My wife is worried about me and she knows I am not feeling good. Starting to try to be more open about the anxiety. When I talk about it, it makes me feel weak and I can get emotional. 

 

I have not been doing any sort of counseling this whole time. I just made an appointment and seeing someone this coming week. Started meditating again and trying to read more. When you feel good its sometimes hard to remember to do all the things you did to feel better in the first place. Its all very frustrating. 
 

 

[LostInCanada]

19 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

I saw some switch to lexapro as its supposed to be easier to get off of? I need to research more

I know citalopram the sister of escitalopram, and it has been mentioned as a possible switch from a cold turkey. Honestly I have tried to help a few on lexapro and it is a beast of a drug. My personal feeling is though paxil sucks we know what we are dealing with. 

 

22 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

I would drop 10% every few months

I think once stable, dropping in smaller percentages is more reasonable. Maybe trying a 1-2% would minimize symptoms and allow you to drop more regularly without putting your body through as much shock. These smaller dosages affect the serotonin receptors the most. Have you looked over the brass monkey slide method. It can be adjusted to your needs but is designed to keep you functional.

26 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

upset as I am going backwards

It's a learning curve. Don't look behind. Focus on how far you have come.

27 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

feel like a shadow of my formal self

I understand. It's hard not to. I realize though there is alot of peace and happiness in slowing down and being grateful for the little things. 

You got this. 👍

[Alfred1977]

32 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

I agree on holding the dose and probably not switching. Sometimes feeling desperate like I will try anything to feel normal. I thought maybe I saw some switch to lexapro as its supposed to be easier to get off of? I need to research more. 

 

Hi Robert,

a couple of weeks ago I crashed badly and also thought about switching. I am on Venlafaxine for more than 18 years now and sometimes people say that Venlafaxine and Paxil were the hard ones when it comes to tapering. Probably because the receptor occupancy curve is particularly steep at lower doses for those drugs and you have to proceed very carefully and gradually at lower doses. In the end I decided to stay on Venlafaxine, although it is impeding my sleep and numbing my senses. The fear that I run into Venlafaxine withdrawal and negative side effects from the new drug at the same time was bigger than the hope for an easy way out. After all the theory is that withdrawal is stress, related to the need for adaptation of the brain. And thus switching will probably in general cause more stress and in some lucky cases work out fine and lead to a smoother tapering.

The short half-lives of Venlafaxine and Paxil have also advantages. I think it is easier to observe yourself and notice what drug/diet changes are doing with you.

 

On the other hand our situations are different. I am at 25mg right now and you at 0.18mg, if I got you right. However, if you are in crisis right now, it's time to stabilize and not the time to switch the drug. If you are really feeling bad, it will probably take a couple of weeks or even months to recover and this gives you time to think about this decision.

 

[Robert99]

@Alfred1977 thanks for your feedback. 
I was down to .18mgs at beginning of May. Then did two increases, first to .4 and second to .8 to try to feel better. So far no relief.
This all seemed to start when I got hit hard with allergy symptoms in beginning of May, worse I have ever experienced. In my area they are still moderate to high. 
I’ve wondered if there is a correlation between allergies and anxiety and it seems there is from my research. They should improve sometime in July and wondering if that will help? 
Going to try to hang in there at current dose and see if things can get better. 
 

[LostInCanada]

46 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

correlation between allergies and anxiety and it seems there is from my research

It has to do with histamines. Some have found it beneficial to follow a low histamine diet.

[LostInCanada]

3 hours ago, Robert99 said:

I'm taking Advair & Albuterol inhalers, Advair daily in AM, Albuterol only as needed (which is maybe once or twice a month). I do flonase twice per day AM and PM

Drug checker says:

Albuterol + Salmeterol

Albuterol and Salmeterol both decrease potassium levels in the blood.

 

Albuterol and Salmeterol both decrease sedation and drowsiness.

 

Albuterol and Salmeterol both increase adrenaline effects, which affect blood pressure and heart rate

 

 

So using these 2 drugs together could be increasing anxiety. As well steroids are not the kindest for your CNS. 

[Alfred1977]

1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

This all seemed to start when I got hit hard with allergy symptoms in beginning of May, worse I have ever experienced. In my area they are still moderate to high. 
I’ve wondered if there is a correlation between allergies and anxiety and it seems there is from my research.

This is interesting. I am also allergic and had asthma. Have been since I was about 12 years old. Fortunately it improved a lot with age. But I haven't so far thought or heard about such a connection. Are you also taking antihistamines or something like this? 

[Sebas]

19 hours ago, LostInCanada said:

Drug checker says:

Albuterol + Salmeterol

Albuterol and Salmeterol both decrease potassium levels in the blood.

 

Albuterol and Salmeterol both decrease sedation and drowsiness.

 

Albuterol and Salmeterol both increase adrenaline effects, which affect blood pressure and heart rate

 

 

So using these 2 drugs together could be increasing anxiety. As well steroids are not the kindest for your 

From experience neither one of them I would advice being combined with paxil. 

[Robert99]

@Alfred1977
Studies have shown that people with allergies may be more likely to experience anxiety, and that anxiety can also be a symptom of allergies. Some researchers believe that inflammation caused by allergies may trigger biochemical changes that increase anxiety. For example, when someone with a tree pollen allergy inhales pollen, their immune system releases substances that can inflame the airways and brain. This inflammation can lead to anxiety symptoms like irritability, restlessness, and trouble sleeping. 
This all started with severe allergies in the beginning of may. In my area they were saying it is supposed to be the worst year for allergies due to the super mild winter and early thaw we had. 

[Robert99]

4 minutes ago, Sebas said:

From experience neither one of them I would advice being combined with paxil. 

I can ask doctor if there are others they don't effect anxiety but I kind of doubt it as these are common asthma medications. 

 

19 hours ago, LostInCanada said:

Drug checker says:

Albuterol + Salmeterol

Albuterol and Salmeterol both decrease potassium levels in the blood.

 

Albuterol and Salmeterol both decrease sedation and drowsiness.

 

Albuterol and Salmeterol both increase adrenaline effects, which affect blood pressure and heart rate

 

 

So using these 2 drugs together could be increasing anxiety. As well steroids are not the kindest for your CNS. 

I try not to use them but they tell me to use them daily and they are supposed to help. Not sure of any others right now that I could switch to but I can ask Dr.

[Robert99]

19 hours ago, Alfred1977 said:

This is interesting. I am also allergic and had asthma. Have been since I was about 12 years old. Fortunately it improved a lot with age. But I haven't so far thought or heard about such a connection. Are you also taking antihistamines or something like this? 

Do you take anything for allergies? 

I was thinking to try an allergy medication but scared about side effects on anxiety.

[LostInCanada]

11 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Not sure of any others right now that I could switch to but I can ask Dr.

I highly doubt there is many if any non steroid options. Maybe you could mention the contraindication and see if it is possible to use just one or the other. A medication switch could cause other issues so definitely be careful. 

This may be why tapering is becoming harder and one more reason to slow down on the percentage.

7 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

was thinking to try an allergy medication but scared about side effects on anxiety.

Always put medications in a drug checker for contraindications. Some with allergies on here will start with just a 1/4 pill to gauge reaction and effectiveness.

[Alfred1977]

2 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Do you take anything for allergies? 

I was thinking to try an allergy medication but scared about side effects on anxiety.

During the summer months or sometime from spring until fall I used to take Advair and Cetirizine on a daily basis. Before that also different stuff. Now for about the last 7 years I am only taking Cetirizine (or something similar) and Advair as needed, which meant that I was sometimes taking an antihistamine and almost never advair.

 

I was/am pretty convinced that there is a psychological component of asthma. Fear can cause a feeling of suffocation and cramping of the bronchia. On the other hand feeling suffocation causes tremendous fear.

[LostInCanada]

@Robert99 @Alfred1977 my husband has had some success with his allergies using vitamin C and quercetin. Both are natural antihistamines.

[Robert99]

4 hours ago, LostInCanada said:

@Robert99 @Alfred1977 my husband has had some success with his allergies using vitamin C and quercetin. Both are natural antihistamines.

Thank you! I am taking both of those!

 

4 hours ago, Alfred1977 said:

During the summer months or sometime from spring until fall I used to take Advair and Cetirizine on a daily basis. Before that also different stuff. Now for about the last 7 years I am only taking Cetirizine (or something similar) and Advair as needed, which meant that I was sometimes taking an antihistamine and almost never advair.

 

I was/am pretty convinced that there is a psychological component of asthma. Fear can cause a feeling of suffocation and cramping of the bronchia. On the other hand feeling suffocation causes tremendous fear.

When I read it says it interacts with SSRI and SNRI. Do you get any side effects? It says may increase side effects such as dizziness, drowsiness, and difficulty concentrating

[Alfred1977]

1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

When I read it says it interacts with SSRI and SNRI. Do you get any side effects? It says may increase side effects such as dizziness, drowsiness, and difficulty concentrating

No, I am not aware of any interaction between those drugs. But as I said I have never thought about this before and might have simply missed it...especially since it has become rare lately that I take those meds. Well...I certainly would have noticed severe interactions though. Aren't antihistamines sedative? So they might even ease anxiety, insomnia and so on.

[Robert99]

On 6/16/2024 at 11:25 AM, LostInCanada said:

@Robert99

This is a quote from Erell today about whether she would recommend a switch:

"It's difficult to answer this question, as my opinion is inevitably heavily influenced by my experience, which consists of a failed switch between two antidepressants, and therefore the experience of a too rapid withdrawal from paroxetine (which I can't recommend).
So I don't see myself recommending a switch, because while a switch can work, it can also lead to a lot of suffering, and in our current state of knowledge we can't determine if it will work or not, for whom and why. "

 

 

Do you know how long kindling can last? I’m in rough shape had a panic attack while making dinner last night. I’m supposed to work and no idea how I can do that with way I feel. I need things to level out but it seems to be getting worse. Don’t know what to do. 

[LostInCanada]

@Robert99 please update your signature so we can see at a glance dates and dosages.

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/forums/topic/28240-how-to-summarize-your-drug-history-in-your-signature/

Thanks.

42 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

how long kindling can last

I don't think you have kindled. 

It is really important to find non drug ways of coping. I know I have benefited from a CBT course I took over zoom. There are many free online course to go at your own pace or books at the library. Claire Weekes book Hope and Help for Your Nerves is really amazing in dealing with anxiety as well.

 

 

 

[Alfred1977]

40 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Do you know how long kindling can last? I’m in rough shape had a panic attack while making dinner last night. I’m supposed to work and no idea how I can do that with way I feel. I need things to level out but it seems to be getting worse. Don’t know what to do. 

As far as I know, kindling means becoming extremely sensitized to dose changes and it probably lasts for years, decades or forever. That is, it doesn't mean that you would suffer that long. It would just mean that you would have to be extremely careful in the future when changing doses.

 

If your current problems are caused by withdrawal and/or updosing, it would be helpful to know the details about your dose changes over time. I think rest and stability are key for recovery in such a scenario. Could you get sick leave? Nobody can tell you for sure how long recovery will take. But usually it takes quite some time. Recovery in a matter of weeks is fast. If your problems are severe full recovery will probably take months. If your problems are catastrophic full recovery might take years. 

[Robert99]

On 6/18/2024 at 10:13 AM, Alfred1977 said:

As far as I know, kindling means becoming extremely sensitized to dose changes and it probably lasts for years, decades or forever. That is, it doesn't mean that you would suffer that long. It would just mean that you would have to be extremely careful in the future when changing doses.

 

If your current problems are caused by withdrawal and/or updosing, it would be helpful to know the details about your dose changes over time. I think rest and stability are key for recovery in such a scenario. Could you get sick leave? Nobody can tell you for sure how long recovery will take. But usually it takes quite some time. Recovery in a matter of weeks is fast. If your problems are severe full recovery will probably take months. If your problems are catastrophic full recovery might take years. 

Thank God, I don't think it is kindling either as I have updosed without issues in the past (like when I was hospitalized with Covid). I have been trying to relax and get in nature and learn more about what is going on in my brain with books on ways to cope with anxiety/panic. Things are improving slowly. 

[Robert99]

Anyone ever do a neurotransmitter test? super interesting, I'm low in GABA, Glutamate, and norepinephrine. Low range of serotonin. 

This is all very interesting and wondering what to do with the info. The suggestions are supplementation which I know must people on this site are against. 

I did start some GABA at night. I'm being told tryptophan at night would help serotonin (and to possibly taper while taking, they are saying you don't want to take both for any longer term). Obviously the concern is SS but with things so low I don't think that would be a concern if it wasn't long term use. 

 

[LostInCanada]

With your cns as sensitive as it is, I would not recommend adding anything. These supplements work for people not n withdrawal. A test that doesn’t tell the whole story. We have way too many mitigating factors.

[Sebas]

18 hours ago, Robert99 said:

I'm being told tryptophan at night would help serotonin (and to possibly taper while taking,

Strongly recommend not to use tryptophan. 

[Robert99]

I'm on a mission now to basically test every system in my body to see if there are other factors that are playing in to anxiety symptoms. 

 

@Sebas how did you find out about this? 

• 2019-2023 developed severe food- and other sensitivities (anti imflammatory, anti oxidant, food colourings, oils, herbs, chemicals etc.)

[Sebas]

If you literally play around with meds and supplements like this, missioning, testing and alternating, you can't expect your CNS to become stabile on your drug dose. It may at one point turn against you. 

Supps: magnesium, fish oil, probiotic, vit d, boron, zinc, creatine, glutamine, arginine, collagen, thorne aminos, multi, quercetin, playing around with GABA and low dose Tryptophan (alternating every other night) due to neurotransmitter levels low on serotonin, gaba, glutamate and norepinephrine. 
Meds for non allergic rhinitis and asthma: flonase (twice a day), advair (one puff in the mornings), albuterol (as needed)

[LostInCanada]

16 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Sebas how did you find out about this? 

• 2019-2023 developed severe food- and other sensitivities (anti imflammatory, anti oxidant, food colourings, oils, herbs, chemicals etc.

Probably just by reacting when eating something or coming in contact with it. 

@Robert99 because paxil affects antihistamine receptors, some find it beneficial to incorporate a low histamine diet and avoid foods that are histamine liberators. Asking google if a food is low in histamine or a histamine liberator is an easy check. Many food additives liberate histamine as well. Histamine release increases anxiety also 

 

[Robert99]

On 6/30/2024 at 4:12 AM, Sebas said:

If you literally play around with meds and supplements like this, missioning, testing and alternating, you can't expect your CNS to become stabile on your drug dose. It may at one point turn against you. 

Supps: magnesium, fish oil, probiotic, vit d, boron, zinc, creatine, glutamine, arginine, collagen, thorne aminos, multi, quercetin, playing around with GABA and low dose Tryptophan (alternating every other night) due to neurotransmitter levels low on serotonin, gaba, glutamate and norepinephrine. 
Meds for non allergic rhinitis and asthma: flonase (twice a day), advair (one puff in the mornings), albuterol (as needed)

Well you are certainly right about this. So as I was recommended I was playing around with L-Tryptophan at night. One morning I woke up super dizzy/vertigo. It was an awful day. So I cut that out. 

I also cut out aminos and most supps. So now just taking a multi, magnesium, fish oil, creatine. However I am still taking L-theanine as needed (been taking for a few years). It is a crutch as I take it when heading in to situations where I am feeling anxious. I am still having trouble sleeping so I am still taking GABA occasionally at night too and it seems to work with my body fine (low dose 250mgs). 
So today after quitting aminos over a week ago I wanted to see how I would feel to add it and it sped me up and made me not feel good. So won't do that again. 

 

I did have a mycotox test done and was high in Ochratoxin A (17.79). Anyone have any experience with that? 

 

 

[Sebas]

28 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

However I am still taking L-theanine as needed (been taking for a few years). It is a crutch as I take it when heading in to situations where I am feeling anxious.

 

Like any supplement that impacts serotonine and/or dopamine levels during withdrawal, you may get some relief on short term, but during wd it will not contribute to CNS stability since it creates serotonine imbalance. You might try updosing magnesium instead on such occasions (starting day before). 

[Sebas]

54 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

So as I was recommended I was playing around with L-Tryptophan at night.

Who ever recommended this is not aware of possible risk of serotonine syndrom.

[Robert99]

2 hours ago, Sebas said:

Who ever recommended this is not aware of possible risk of serotonine syndrom.

I paid for a coaching session with a guy who owns a practice (in patient for helping people get off AD). He told me to start taking l tryptophan and that I could ramp that up and come of the paxil. Such a bad idea. 

[LostInCanada]

8 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

paid for a coaching session with a guy who owns a practice (in patient for helping people get off AD)

I feel like it is becoming a cash cow for people claiming to be able to help. I appreciate that no one here is profiting, just helping based on collective experience. And Sebas is amazing with his knowledge of supplements. Just keep asking questions here before adding anything. It is easier to prevent a reaction than undoing it. 👍