Theopold: 1 Month off Sertraline - Increasing Withdrawal Symptoms

[theopold]

12 minutes ago, Ariel said:

Hi @theopold

How are you going?

 

Hemly recently shared this video in their thread (which might be worth a read, by the way). I watched it with appreciation and thought about some of what we've discussed before. The video offers some useful clarifications and puts into simple, practical terms some concepts that can sometimes seem quite cerebral.

 

Thinking of you and sending healing vibes ❤️

Ariel

 

Hello @Ariel,

 

Thank you for your message. I am actually having a tough time right now. Just feeling very alone and frightened. I know it will pass, but as I'm sure you already know, when you in the midst of times like this, it can be very difficult to endure. How are you doing, my dear Ariel?  I hope you are well 🌹

[Ariel]

Dear @theopold

 

8 hours ago, theopold said:

Thank you for your message. I am actually having a tough time right now. Just feeling very alone and frightened. I know it will pass, but as I'm sure you already know, when you in the midst of times like this, it can be very difficult to endure.

 

I'm sorry to hear you're having a tough time. WD can be so challenging. 

As you say, even though we trust it will pass, it can indeed be difficult to experience for the duration. 

 

I'm so sorry this happened to you. It isn't right. Nobody should have to go through the torture of WD.

 

And -- here we are. 

We're going through it, and we're making it through, little by little. We're doing it, and as awful as it feels, the important part is we are doing it. 

Every moment we get through is a win. Every day we get through, gold medal. Every night we get through -- diamond-encrusted super-platinum!!!!

 

I don't know what to tell you, except I hear you. This sucks. 

And -- you're doing an amazing job. You are winning, I promise you. You're doing such good work!

Beneath the surface, healing is happening. Healing is happening all the time, even when we don't consciously perceive it. 

 

Love to you,

Ariel

[theopold]

Thanks, @Ariel

 

34 minutes ago, Ariel said:

And -- here we are. 

We're going through it, and we're making it through, little by little. We're doing it, and as awful as it feels, the important part is we are doing it. 

Every moment we get through is a win. Every day we get through, gold medal. Every night we get through -- diamond-encrusted super-platinum!!!!

 

And, thanks for making me smile - all hail the diamond-encrusted, super-platinum nighttime survival award!!  And yeah, it definitely does suck.  It also just wears you down, mentally and emotionally, over time.  But, hey!!  Time is also our "friend" in this journey, as well.  Which is probably one specific reason why I've been struggling quite a bit today.   I have actually been seeing some progress in terms of my symptoms lately, and then...wham!!  You get hit with a serious freakin' wave, and well, it's really just...brutal. 

 

Which is yet another reason why I adore you, obviously☺️  Here I am literally drowning in anxiety today, and into my intro thread pops a sweet and gentle gift from a beautiful angel.  Be well, my dear friend, and know that you are never very far from my thoughts ❤️  

[theopold]

Well, it's been almost exactly a month since my last update, so...maybe I'm due?  Interestingly, I was just reading a post by @Ariel on another member's thread.  In said comment, she opined how maybe SA members who have passed the initial "WTF stage" of withdrawal don't necessarily post as often, and are just sort of hunkering down most of the time...perhaps only returning "when in crisis"?

 

Point being, I do feel like this "theory" is, at the very least, a pretty good description of my own behavior recently.  To wit, I have just sort of been "hunkering down" over the last month, trying to come to terms with the fact that this is going to take a while, and like everything else withdrawal-related...it's best just accepted, acknowledged, surrendered to, etc.

 

And....I'm back here right now because the last few days have been particularly rough.  As mentioned in my post last month, my GI symptoms had pretty much abated at that point, and that is still mostly the case.  I say "mostly" because over the last few days I have been having some minor issues with pelvic pains, but...they are much more intermittent, and far less uncomfortable than they were previously.  All the previous psychological symptoms, however, are still pretty much alive and kicking, and they continue to torment me on a fairly regular basis, sadly. 

 

But, getting back to what specifically brought me here to provide an update today...in the last couple/few days I've been dealing with serious bouts of depression, compounded in the last day or so by some pretty brutal periods of real despair.  To this point, I hadn't really been dealing with any significant depression, per se, just your usual panic/anxiety/fear cycles, so yeah...not sure what's brought on these latest symptoms??  I had been feeling like maybe things were "getting better" recently, in part because I've been sleeping a little better these last couple of weeks - still waking up fairly often during the night, but better able to fall asleep initially, and better able to fall back to sleep after each waking period. 

 

But, my god, the last few days have been just...awful.  Frighteningly so.  As I'm sure some others here can relate...during such times one has that feeling, or even "wish", perhaps, that, one way or another (if you know what I mean) this all would just freakin' STOP!!!  But, alas, that just ain't gonna happen, because...well, you already know the "because" why, yes?                   

[Ariel]

Good to read you @theopold

Sorry it's rough going and the last few days have been so awful. 

 

5 hours ago, theopold said:

I had been feeling like maybe things were "getting better" recently, in part because I've been sleeping a little better these last couple of weeks - still waking up fairly often during the night, but better able to fall asleep initially, and better able to fall back to sleep after each waking period. 

 

5 hours ago, theopold said:

As mentioned in my post last month, my GI symptoms had pretty much abated at that point, and that is still mostly the case.  I say "mostly" because over the last few days I have been having some minor issues with pelvic pains, but...they are much more intermittent, and far less uncomfortable than they were previously. 

 

This is encouraging! 

 

I know it can be challenging to do -- I find it tricky myself -- it's so important to really notice and acknowledge and embrace these improvements. Because that's what they are, they are most definitely good signs and solid evidence that healing is happening ❤️

 

Our minds say, "Yeah, but..." and "No, but..." -- all the buts! Because of the brain's negative bias, the default is to scan for danger and threat and focus on what is not okay, that's the evolutionary programming meant to keep us safe. So we have to actively intervene and gently coax our attention in the direction of everything that is going right, and make a conscious effort to insist upon the positive developments. Especially in WD, given that it is a long, drawn-out process where relief comes gradually, intermittently, unpredictably, sometimes fleeting-ly (?) / unsteadily -- all the more reason to reinforce the good. Our monkey minds may fight it the whole time, there may be a chorus of yeah-buts and no-buts in the background, and that's okay. We can practice paying attention to welcome change; however imperfect and incomplete and unreliable we may fear it to be, the present moment is ours to inhabit. 

 

One way I do this is by writing things down in a gratitude journal. It's very simple to do, either in the morning or in the evening or both. I don't put pen to paper every day, sometimes I list things in my mind. Often when I turn in for the night and rest my head to sleep, I whisper what I'm grateful for, incl. any highlights from my day. No moment is too small to mention, just whatever comes to mind. I try to end the day by saying, Thank you. Sometimes the only thing I can think of to be thankful for is having survived the day to make it to my pillow at night (to quote our dear @Greatful), and I'll actually say, "Thank you for getting me through this day, I'm so glad it's over," or "One more day down, bringing me one more day closer to recovery," or something like that. And truly, given what WD puts us through, making it through another day is a laudable achievement. 

 

Now, I wish I could tell you, "Hey, if you whisper a gratitude list into your pillow at night it'll help you sleep better!" and I can't promise that or claim that to be my consistent experience (although, who knows, in a parallel universe where control-group alternate-me didn't whisper a gratitude list, maybe that version of me slept much worse (poor thing)!). However, I can attest to the fact that saying thank you is not a bad way to end the day, and there are many worse thoughts to be entertaining prior to starting one's night. I'm convinced that, neurologically, neuro-plastic-ally (?!), a gratitude practice cannot hurt and might provide benefits. And while I may be fooling myself, engaging in some wishful thinking, I'd like to believe this little practice helps me remember to notice the positive, even and especially when my mind would have me do otherwise. 

 

Wouldn't it be cool if we could distract ourselves from the difficult by reminding ourselves of what has eased for us? Even if only for a few minutes at a time. I realize this may not always be available to us, which is why it's useful to diversify our portfolio of coping techniques and tools. In past weeks I have relied heavily on such illustrious strategies as watching the Olympics and crying; lying in a darkened room shutting out the world; and making massive amounts of kimchi. Whatever works! 

 

How are the doggos? 

 

Hugs and healing vibes ❤️

[Ariel]

Hi @theopold

Just checking in. How are you going?

No presh.

Thinking nice thoughts in your direction <3

Ariel

[theopold]

Hello, @Ariel

 

16 hours ago, Ariel said:

Hi @theopold

Just checking in. How are you going?

No presh.

Thinking nice thoughts in your direction ❤️

Ariel

 

Thank you for checking in ❤️  I've really been struggling with some psychological issues lately.  And, it seems to me that what I am experiencing is a combination of withdrawal symptoms, and also just the generalized anxiety, health anxiety, etc, that I've had most of my life?  I don't know what your thoughts are about that? 

 

One of the issues that's really messing with my head right now is...what if I'm sort of deliberately "causing" some of the anxiety, depression, etc, that I've been experiencing lately?  What if it's some sort of situation where I'm wanting to "punish" myself for being a "bad" person, or something? 

 

Interesting part of this is...I kinda know that's not actually what's going on, haha!  It's just the second fear.  By way of an example, my withdrawal symptoms included insomnia - that's just an absolute fact.  But, at this point - a few months on, now - I also find myself in a situation where I feel like I am "causing" my insomnia sometimes by starting the whole "what if" thing...if you know what I'm saying?  I start what-iff'ing about having a bout of insomnia, the second fear kicks in, and...bingo!!  I have a bout of insomnia   And, as suggested above, this leads to a very negative place where I feel like...I'm doing this to myself.

 

So yeah, I'm really struggling right now with this cyclical process where I start obsessing about some possible physical or mental symptom possibly hitting me, which creates a second fear situation, which reinforces my obsessive thoughts, and in some cases, all of that worry and anxiety actually brings about the "symptom" I've been fearing.  The insomnia mentioned above is one example but there are plenty more examples happening to me lately as well.  Not the least of which...this very scary feeling like I can "think" myself crazy 😬😬  I know that's not possible, I KNOW I'm not actually crazy, or going crazy, etc, but...when these fears hit, they're obviously very irrational...yes?

 

And, finally, there's just this deep sense of frustration, anger, sadness, etc, at times.  I couldn't sleep last night, and so this morning I was just (literally) screaming out loud at the universe, lol.  You know...feeling sorry for myself, bemoaning the unfairness of it all, asking said universe when is this ever, ever going to stop, etc, etc.  And while I do understand that "blowing off steam" in this way isn't necessarily a "bad" thing, it does also make me feel like maybe I'm kind of "losing it" a bit lately 😪  Meaning...this experience just tires you out, wears you down, etc.  And so, feeling this way tends to frighten me as well...

 

Bearing all of the above in mind, I DO try to remind myself that I'm not alone, that many people have faced similar struggles, or even much worse, and survived - and eventually thrived.  I also try to remind myself that I AM stronger than I think, and that while I may be a "coward" in my own mind at times, I have also been very brave during this difficult time as well.  And finally, I try to remind myself that, well, in the final analysis there really is no other way but forward, yes?  It's just that...at times like this I often feel very sad, lonely, and frightened. 

 

To end on a slightly more positive note, lol...during these very challenging times, I do think of people like you, Ariel, and I draw strength from my thoughts of you.  Given your own past experiences, I constantly marvel at your strength, your courage, your inner beauty, your just plain wonderful human goodness.  And so, you should know this, Ariel.  You are an inspiration to me, and I am grateful and honored to know you 💝

 

And oh...the doggos are fine.  When I was screaming at the universe this morning, for example, they were definitely a little nervous, and also anxious for me - understandably.  But, when I eventually stopped my futile ranting, they came over to comfort me.  I feel a little sad about that sometimes because they clearly know I am struggling right now, but hopefully they can also feel the intensity of my love for them as well... 

 

I hope you are well, my dear, and that perhaps even as I write this message you are happily puttering around in your kitchen right this very moment!     

[theopold]

On 8/13/2024 at 12:36 AM, Ariel said:

One way I do this is by writing things down in a gratitude journal. It's very simple to do, either in the morning or in the evening or both. I don't put pen to paper every day, sometimes I list things in my mind. Often when I turn in for the night and rest my head to sleep, I whisper what I'm grateful for, incl. any highlights from my day. No moment is too small to mention, just whatever comes to mind. I try to end the day by saying, Thank you. Sometimes the only thing I can think of to be thankful for is having survived the day to make it to my pillow at night (to quote our dear @Greatful), and I'll actually say, "Thank you for getting me through this day, I'm so glad it's over," or "One more day down, bringing me one more day closer to recovery," or something like that. And truly, given what WD puts us through, making it through another day is a laudable achievement. 

 

lol.  I'm a bit out of order in my message reply, @Ariel  But, I did want to comment on a few thoughts in this message from you.  In terms of the above, yes, a gratitude journal is a very good idea.  I do try to remind myself of the things I am grateful for, but perhaps I can make a little video for myself each day - make it a bit more formal, and easier to reflect back on

 

On 8/13/2024 at 12:36 AM, Ariel said:

However, I can attest to the fact that saying thank you is not a bad way to end the day, and there are many worse thoughts to be entertaining prior to starting one's night.

 

Amen to that, @Ariel!!!!!

 

On 8/13/2024 at 12:36 AM, Ariel said:

And while I may be fooling myself, engaging in some wishful thinking

 

If we be fools, at least let us be fools together, lol!! 🤭  Seriously, though...I think you are absolutely correct about this.  It's like that saying...If you think you're going to have a good day, or you think you're going to have a bad day, either way...you are right!

 

On 8/13/2024 at 12:36 AM, Ariel said:

In past weeks I have relied heavily on such illustrious strategies as watching the Olympics and crying; lying in a darkened room shutting out the world; and making massive amounts of kimchi. Whatever works! 

 

Just quoting the above here because it reminds me of how adorable you are.  Is one allowed to ask...why massive amounts of KIMCHI?  And, oh, for what it's worth...I myself cry over absolutely EVERYTHING these days 🤪

 

Much love...

[Ariel]

Hi @theopold

 

Good to read you, though the going may be tough.

 

How do you feel when participating here? Do you find it useful to write and interact with others? Do you find it useful to stay away? 

I'm curious about your experience of SA. 

 

On 8/16/2024 at 2:07 PM, theopold said:

I do try to remind myself of the things I am grateful for, but perhaps I can make a little video for myself each day

 

If you do feel moved to "formalize" a gratitude practice, I'd urge you to write things down by hand on paper, the old-fashioned way. The kinetic learning of handwriting on paper helps the brain absorb what we're doing and wire those connections.

 

I also can't help but wonder how much/often you're on your phone... This thing about making a video for yourself (are you really going to re-watch old videos of yourself? I can think of few worse things, haha); prior to this, you once commented in an earlier post, in response to something I'd written about sleep, that you would read my advice on your phone every night before bed. When I initially read that, I thought, Nooooo hahaha! Best to eliminate or at least minimize screen time for a few hours prior to turning in for the night. If you want to do any sort of reading before sleep, the recommendation is paper (newspaper, magazines, etc.), physical books, paper-and-pen journaling. Some people find that a Kindle or other specifically designed reading device is doable -- these devices usually have a different sort of illumination than the strong blue light of regular screens. Even with so-called blue-light blocking glasses, computer and phone screens are proven to mess with our biorhythms. You probably know all this already, let's say I'm reiterating for posterity.  

 

That being said, no judgment at all. Whatever works! If you find some high-tech strategies that work well for you, kudos and vaya con dios. 

 

On 8/16/2024 at 2:07 PM, theopold said:

It's like that saying...If you think you're going to have a good day, or you think you're going to have a bad day, either way...you are right!

 

Yes, and I'm ever practicing the middle path of "it's a day," pure and simple. 

I think I've already shared with you one of my favorite Alan Watts bits, the Story of the Chinese Farmer, a.k.a. The Maybe Story. Here it is again (for posterity -- oh lucky posterity!) -- 

 

The Chinese Farmer Story

 

Once upon a time there was a Chinese farmer whose horse ran away. That evening, all of his neighbors came around to commiserate. They said, “We are so sorry to hear your horse has run away. This is most unfortunate.” The farmer said, “Maybe.” 

 

The next day the horse came back bringing seven wild horses with it, and in the evening everybody came back and said, “Oh, isn’t that lucky. What a great turn of events. You now have eight horses!” The farmer again said, “Maybe.”

 

The following day his son tried to break one of the horses, and while riding it, he was thrown and broke his leg. The neighbors then said, “Oh dear, that’s too bad,” and the farmer responded, “Maybe.” 

 

The next day the conscription officers came around to conscript people into the army, and they rejected his son because he had a broken leg. Again all the neighbors came around and said, “Isn’t that great!” Again, he said, “Maybe.”

 

The whole process of nature is an integrated process of immense complexity, and it’s really impossible to tell whether anything that happens in it is good or bad — because you never know what will be the consequence of the misfortune; or, you never know what will be the consequences of good fortune.

 

— Alan Watts

 

(copied from here)

 

On 8/16/2024 at 2:07 PM, theopold said:

why massive amounts of KIMCHI?

 

Why not? LOL 

It's delicious, fun to make (great distraction), inexpensive, nutritious and full of first-rate probiotics, and it's a wonderful gift to share with others who enjoy it and don't have the time or inclination to prepare it themselves. 

 

On 8/16/2024 at 1:49 PM, theopold said:

And oh...the doggos are fine.  When I was screaming at the universe this morning, for example, they were definitely a little nervous, and also anxious for me - understandably.  But, when I eventually stopped my futile ranting, they came over to comfort me.  I feel a little sad about that sometimes because they clearly know I am struggling right now, but hopefully they can also feel the intensity of my love for them as well... 

 

 

I guarantee you they feel your love! Y'all are family, those bonds are real and unbreakable. Don't ever worry about that. They ask so little and give so much, they just want to be with you and spend time together and enjoy mutual shared presence. I'm glad you have each other.

 

Do you care for the dogs and walk them entirely by yourself, or do you have someone to help you? What about with things like housework and grocery shopping? How is it these days, are you able to manage domestic chores and everyday errands, or do you require assistance? 

 

On 8/16/2024 at 1:49 PM, theopold said:

I've really been struggling with some psychological issues lately.  And, it seems to me that what I am experiencing is a combination of withdrawal symptoms, and also just the generalized anxiety, health anxiety, etc, that I've had most of my life?  I don't know what your thoughts are about that? 

 

One of the issues that's really messing with my head right now is...what if I'm sort of deliberately "causing" some of the anxiety, depression, etc, that I've been experiencing lately?  What if it's some sort of situation where I'm wanting to "punish" myself for being a "bad" person, or something? 

 

Interesting part of this is...I kinda know that's not actually what's going on, haha!  It's just the second fear.  By way of an example, my withdrawal symptoms included insomnia - that's just an absolute fact.  But, at this point - a few months on, now - I also find myself in a situation where I feel like I am "causing" my insomnia sometimes by starting the whole "what if" thing...if you know what I'm saying?  I start what-iff'ing about having a bout of insomnia, the second fear kicks in, and...bingo!!  I have a bout of insomnia   And, as suggested above, this leads to a very negative place where I feel like...I'm doing this to myself.

 

So yeah, I'm really struggling right now with this cyclical process where I start obsessing about some possible physical or mental symptom possibly hitting me, which creates a second fear situation, which reinforces my obsessive thoughts, and in some cases, all of that worry and anxiety actually brings about the "symptom" I've been fearing.  The insomnia mentioned above is one example but there are plenty more examples happening to me lately as well.  Not the least of which...this very scary feeling like I can "think" myself crazy 😬😬  I know that's not possible, I KNOW I'm not actually crazy, or going crazy, etc, but...when these fears hit, they're obviously very irrational...yes?

 

And, finally, there's just this deep sense of frustration, anger, sadness, etc, at times.  I couldn't sleep last night, and so this morning I was just (literally) screaming out loud at the universe, lol.  You know...feeling sorry for myself, bemoaning the unfairness of it all, asking said universe when is this ever, ever going to stop, etc, etc.  And while I do understand that "blowing off steam" in this way isn't necessarily a "bad" thing, it does also make me feel like maybe I'm kind of "losing it" a bit lately 😪  Meaning...this experience just tires you out, wears you down, etc.  And so, feeling this way tends to frighten me as well...

 

You call these psychological issues. I don't know to what extent you dealt with this sort of thing prior to WD/iatrogenic harm. You say you've been dealing with generalized anxiety and health anxiety most of your life. I don't know, I'm just guessing that whatever is going on now is WD-related and thus amplified via neuro-emotions and the wayward thought patterns of iatrogenic injury. There may be an underlying layer that is something you're familiar with from earlier in your life, and at the same time, I'm guessing that in its current version, these symptoms are much more intense and challenging to contain than usual. 

 

The main thing is to forgive yourself. It's not your fault. I'm sorry this happened to you, theopold. Nobody should have to suffer through the torture of iatrogenic chemical injury. Whatever your brain is doing, however it's affecting your mind, for the most part it's not "you". It's these randomly generated falsehoods caused by the injury, symptoms of iatrogenic illness, not indicative of "you" or "your integrity" or "your worth" or anything like that. Don't blame yourself for things being this way, and don't blame yourself for not being able to fix/control/master/win this. Forgive yourself across the board and meet yourself with compassion. 

 

Have you ever experienced one of your dogs being sick? Remember how you felt? Perhaps you felt full of love and tenderness and open-hearted empathic concern for their well-being. Perhaps you felt moved to stay by their side and do whatever you could, even if it was only very little, to make them just a bit more comfortable and let them know you were there, that they were not alone. Do you remember? That is how I would like you to treat yourself throughout this process of recovering from WD. Insomuch as possible, just show up and be here for yourself. If that sounds cryptic or like, What does that even mean, to show up and be here for myself? I hear you. That's the practice -- to inquire into what that might look like, what that might feel like, in any given moment, on any given day. Just keep exploring how you might make things easier on yourself. How you might meet yourself with the same unconditional love, acceptance, kindness, compassion that you no doubt show your beloved animals. 

 

Also, I'd suggest you start implementing more of a "so what," attitude. I've got the impression (which may not be accurate) that you're spending a lot of time and energy being preoccupied with inner states, mapping the landscape of thoughts, noting all the erupting volcanos, tectonic plates shifting, etc. It seems like a lot of attention is being devoted to trying to analyze, understand, come to terms with the many uncomfortable thoughts and feelings that come up, like maybe you're operating out of some notion that if you could only get a handle on this and get things organized, labeled, categorized, assigned to little boxes in some sort of filing system, that would bring some semblance of order to what feels like a very chaotic mental space. Does that sound familiar? Are you putting a lot of effort into attempts to declutter your inner world? Maybe also debate and dialogue and engage with various thoughts and lines of thinking, getting lost in elaborate conversations with these thoughts? 

 

Thing is, all of the above is 

a) exhausting

b) futile

c) counterproductive

 

It drains your energy in the worst way -- wears you out and increases fear, causing thought spirals and emotional spirals, increasing stress so that you're overactivated in the sympathetic nervous system, which makes it that much more difficult to rest. Vicious circle. 

 

It sounds to me like you're doing, doing, doing. Thinking, thinking, thinking. Trying to work your way out, trying to untangle the tangles, gnawing gnawing gnawing at it. 

 

This is where the "so what," practice comes in. You notice whatever thoughts are running on a loop in your mind, and you say, "Oh there's that old tape loop again," and you shrug and carry on with your business. You don't stop what you're doing and listen to the tape. You don't try to stop the tape or rewind or fast forward. You just acknowledge that the tape is playing, accept that noise is there (like with a neighbor making noise next door, "Oh there's Mr. Kim, playing with his model trains," (or whatever!), and then you carry on with your business and float above the noise. That's AAF, which we've talked about before. Basically, when your thoughts are going haywire, when your experience feels hijacked by neuro-emotions, you notice what's happening, shrug, and say "so what," and go do something else. Distract. Change the channel. These are all related. The more you can pay attention to stuff in the outside world, the better. Volunteering (any news on the Buddhist monks? how are things are the canine rescue shelter? how does it feel to offer support to other members on SA?), spending time with good people, riding your motorcycle (if that feels safe), any number of activities that require you to place your attention outside your own self -- any of that could be helpful. So your thoughts are nuts, so what? Whose thoughts aren't, honestly LOL  So you feel like cr@p, so what? Right now you've got dogs to feed and walk and a coffee date in two hours from now, so just focus on being present with the dogs and then getting to your date and being present with that person and feeling the sun on your skin or the air conditioning pleasant cooling or whatever. 

 

To emphasize, this is the kindest, gentlest, most compassionate "so what," there is. It's not mean, neglectful, punishing, ignoring, or negative in any way. If the language of "so what," doesn't feel kind to you, you might replace it with another phrase that conveys the same shrugging sort of intention. For example, "Oh well," or "Yes, and," as in "Yes that tape is playing, yes the thoughts are thinking themselves, AND I'm going to go do my thing right over here," or something else. Do a brainstorm and let me know what ideas you come up with for possible so-called transitional phrases that help facilitate acceptance and carrying on! (I believe Claire Weekes uses "no matter" or "doesn't matter" or something like that? similar idea, i think)

 

Last but not least, remember that this is temporary! It will pass. My new catchphrase: This poo shall pass 

Healing is happening all the time, whether or not we consciously perceive it <3

 

And hey, reading between the lines, it sounds like maybe some physical symptoms have shown improvement since you started out? Don't know whether that's accurate. Regardless, it brings us full circle to gratitude practice and the simple, daily strategies to support us getting through the day. So important to notice and celebrate the little things, no matter how small.

 

Thinking of you and sending healing vibes <3

Ariel

[theopold]

Hello @Ariel

 

I hope you are well! ☺️

 

1 hour ago, Ariel said:

How do you feel when participating here? Do you find it useful to write and interact with others? Do you find it useful to stay away? 

I'm curious about your experience of SA.

 

This is a bit of a mixed bag, honestly.  I find that almost anything can "trigger" me these days, and so I have to be careful about what I read here.  That said, the sense of community, the opportunity to be supported and to offer support, the opportunity to update, and track, my own journey, all of these things are very helpful.  So yeah, as mentioned...it's a mixed bag.

 

1 hour ago, Ariel said:

I also can't help but wonder how much/often you're on your phone... This thing about making a video for yourself (are you really going to re-watch old videos of yourself? I can think of few worse things, haha); prior to this, you once commented in an earlier post, in response to something I'd written about sleep, that you would read my advice on your phone every night before bed. When I initially read that, I thought, Nooooo hahaha! Best to eliminate or at least minimize screen time for a few hours prior to turning in for the night.

 

I understand where you're coming from on this one, but...screen time, etc, shortly before bed is not affecting my sleep at this point.  That said, I do still understand your larger point about journaling vs making videos.  And, I have done some journaling in the past, but to this point, at least, I haven't kept up with it.  I do understand the potential benefit, however, so...I'll continue to give this some thought.

 

1 hour ago, Ariel said:

There may be an underlying layer that is something you're familiar with from earlier in your life, and at the same time, I'm guessing that in its current version, these symptoms are much more intense and challenging to contain than usual. 

 

Yes, this is entirely correct. 

 

1 hour ago, Ariel said:

It sounds to me like you're doing, doing, doing. Thinking, thinking, thinking. Trying to work your way out, trying to untangle the tangles, gnawing gnawing gnawing at it.

 

1 hour ago, Ariel said:

This is where the "so what," practice comes in. You notice whatever thoughts are running on a loop in your mind, and you say, "Oh there's that old tape loop again," and you shrug and carry on with your business. You don't stop what you're doing and listen to the tape. You don't try to stop the tape or rewind or fast forward. You just acknowledge that the tape is playing, accept that noise is there (like with a neighbor making noise next door, "Oh there's Mr. Kim, playing with his model trains," (or whatever!), and then you carry on with your business and float above the noise.

 

Yep.  Absolutely.  Would that it was easier to do, lol.  Or, perhaps a better way to put that...I wish it was getting easier over time!  One of my biggest challenges right now is intrusive/obsessive thoughts.  And so, when I start obsessing over something - be it physical, or psychological - I am definitely getting better at the process of turning towards/accepting/surrendering, etc.  And, I am also able to just "carry on" when I'm in the thick of it.  And eventually, in an hour, a few hours, a day, etc, whatever "it" is will slip away - it becomes easier to "change the channel" on it. 

 

But...then another obsession comes in to take it's place...sigh.  And here's the thing that's very, very challenging:  Even though I KNOW the practices I've mentioned above totally, absolutely work, with each new obsession it's like I'm starting from scratch!  In fact, it sometimes seems like learning to accept, to let go, etc, is actually getting HARDER lately!  That part I totally do not understand 😪   

 

1 hour ago, Ariel said:

And hey, reading between the lines, it sounds like maybe some physical symptoms have shown improvement since you started out?

 

Yes, some of the physical symptoms I've had for a while are either improving, or have already resolved.  Unfortunately, however, I've recently "obsessed myself" into some new ones...sigh.  This situation, BTW, is what I was referring to previously when I talked about this feeling of "doing it to myself", or "punishing myself", etc.  And, to try and clarify further...I think it's not really a matter of me actually WANTING to make my current situation more challenging.  It is instead, I think, more a matter of just succumbing to the second fear - the second arrow - sometimes.  I start "what if-ing", and it intensifies to the point where I actually manifest a "new" physical anxiety symptom.  Unfortunately, in this case at least, understanding the "why" of it, doesn't always make it possible, or easy, to subsequently let it go...

 

1 hour ago, Ariel said:

Volunteering (any news on the Buddhist monks? how are things are the canine rescue shelter? how does it feel to offer support to other members on SA?), spending time with good people, riding your motorcycle (if that feels safe), any number of activities that require you to place your attention outside your own self -- any of that could be helpful.

 

No luck with the Buddhist monks volunteering opportunity, unfortunately.  I continue to volunteer at the dog shelter, and I enjoy it very much.  Unfortunately...it's hotter than heck here lately, lol, not to mention the mosquitoes, flies, etc.  And so, I really enjoy it, and I will continue to volunteer at the shelter, but...it can be quite draining sometimes.  And, I definitely enjoy being able to offer support to other SA members.  Finally, yes lol, I often go for motorbike rides as it continues to be a very useful distraction at times, and as a former "loner" I am trying very hard to expand my "good people" social circle...it just takes more time than I'd prefer right now to do this, albeit entirely understandably. 

 

I hope you're doing well there, much love, and of course...you are often in my thoughts ❤️       

[Ariel]

Hi @theopold

 

4 hours ago, theopold said:

Would that it was easier to do, lol.  Or, perhaps a better way to put that...I wish it was getting easier over time!  One of my biggest challenges right now is intrusive/obsessive thoughts.  And so, when I start obsessing over something - be it physical, or psychological - I am definitely getting better at the process of turning towards/accepting/surrendering, etc.  And, I am also able to just "carry on" when I'm in the thick of it.  And eventually, in an hour, a few hours, a day, etc, whatever "it" is will slip away - it becomes easier to "change the channel" on it. 

 

But...then another obsession comes in to take it's place...sigh.  And here's the thing that's very, very challenging:  Even though I KNOW the practices I've mentioned above totally, absolutely work, with each new obsession it's like I'm starting from scratch!  In fact, it sometimes seems like learning to accept, to let go, etc, is actually getting HARDER lately!  That part I totally do not understand

 

I hear you. The intrusive/obsessive/looping thoughts are a major symptom for me, too. I know how tortuous it can feel, and how truly impossible it can be to do anything about them while in the throes of a wave. I have yet to find anything that makes them go away, which is why my tactic comprises various modes of AAF, ignore, distract, leave them alone. It's one of the toughest WD symptoms, I find, in its relentlessness and how exhausting it is. Over the years I've had a few windows where that symptom was completely absent, just gone. How delicious that was to experience, even if only for a short while. It gives me hope that maybe one day this symptom will resolve completely. In the meantime, it has gotten better, gradually diminishing in intensity and duration. I still have intrusive/obsessive/looping thoughts, and they're not as insistent and all-engrossing as they were 2 years ago, or 3 or 4 years ago. Overall the trend is towards fading... at a glacially slow rate. 

 

I recently reached out to 3BBsGurkPog (who's got a wonderful success story up, and has been very generous answering questions) about this very symptom, will quote our exchange in a post below. 

 

As far as I can tell you're doing all the things! I see you making an effort, cultivating a constructive attitude, practicing positive, pro-active mindset, leaning in to life and taking good care of yourself. I don't see what more you could be doing, really. When I share observations/thoughts, it's coming from a place of what has worked for me, never meant as criticism or judgment or pointing out, "oh you missed a spot". On the contrary, it sounds like you're doing a great job covering your bases. And the bottom line is, this WD sh*t is hard and painful and really challenging and demanding to get through, and that's just how it is. I'm sorry this happened to you, I'm sorry you're going through it. It's not your fault!

 

4 hours ago, theopold said:

Yes, some of the physical symptoms I've had for a while are either improving, or have already resolved.  Unfortunately, however, I've recently "obsessed myself" into some new ones...sigh.  This situation, BTW, is what I was referring to previously when I talked about this feeling of "doing it to myself", or "punishing myself", etc.  And, to try and clarify further...I think it's not really a matter of me actually WANTING to make my current situation more challenging.  It is instead, I think, more a matter of just succumbing to the second fear - the second arrow - sometimes.  I start "what if-ing", and it intensifies to the point where I actually manifest a "new" physical anxiety symptom.  Unfortunately, in this case at least, understanding the "why" of it, doesn't always make it possible, or easy, to subsequently let it go...

 

Hmm... not sure what to make of this, to be honest. Other than that WD can make things really hard for us, with neuro-emotions meeting thought/emotional spirals, etc. It's a clusterf*ck, to use a technical term. 

 

I wonder whether it would interest you to peruse any of the free resources on Dr. Michael J. Greenberg's website. I'm not familiar with OCD and rumination-type issues from before WD, and still I found many of these articles informative and inspiring. I know of numerous members who do self-identify as struggling with OCD or "pure O" who have found Greenberg's perspective helpful. Don't know whether you'd find it relevant, mentioning it just in case.  

 

Earlier today on the bus I was trying to thing of how to turn SHRuG into a catchy new acronym. Here's what I've got so far:

SHRuG

Shrug - oh well, this is how it is (acceptance) (the actual physical gesture can be helpful; it's an intentional contract-relax of shoulders -> tension release; even: your shoulders rolling you into a self-hug of sorts)

Hug - be kind to yourself, hold yourself gently (try actually physically wrapping your arms around yourself and giving yourself a squeeze; some report this makes them feel better)

Rug - lie down on the floor if you feel panicky or tired, feel the force of gravity hold you, let go of any possible muscle tension, focus on the exhale when breathing)

GuG - get up and go (carry on with whatever it is you were doing, whatever you may need to do)

 

Still considering what a U might represent. Feel free to chime in should you find yourself inspired. I'll keep working on it, it's a fun distraction. 

 

Thinking of you, sending healing vibes <3

Ariel

[Ariel]

On 8/9/2024 at 9:04 PM, Ariel said:

 

@3BBsGurkPog

 

In waves I get a lot of looping thoughts, intrusive thoughts, rumination/obsessive thinking, "sticky" mind. I'm convinced it's a withdrawal symptom, as it isn't something I've ever been plagued by prior to WD. I don't get windows very often, maybe a few times a year, but when I do all the aforementioned thought torture is completely gone and I experience ease and peace of mind. 

 

Sometimes when in a wave, when things feel bad, I wonder whether I should actively be doing anything to work on the aforementioned thought/thinking symptoms, like should I be pursuing therapy interventions, practicing CBT techniques, etc. I do practice non-drug coping techniques, though I can't say they have much bearing on the unpleasant thought stuff; more that the tools help distract and change focus from the worst WD mental BS. In waves I can start to fear that my brain has learned new, bad habits that will stick around long after WD. But then I remember how all of the tortuous mental activity just disappeared in past windows, without my having to get an honorary degree in targeted self-help. 

 

What's your experience with this, if any? Have you found that some/many things go away on their own, without our having to actively intervene and "fix" them? 

Do you think it's okay to chill (as if, haha; more like, ignore?) and let the worst symptoms just kind of do their thing in the background until they run their course? Or do you think it's important to get in there and fiddle around with CBT and other such mental mechanics?

 

 

On 8/11/2024 at 11:53 PM, 3BBsGurkPog said:

 

Hi there.

 

So I totally had all of those symptoms too, particularly the intrusive thoughts. While they are similar to symptoms of other mental health issues, they are also symptoms of withdrawal. So if you are in withdrawal you can basically be certain that they are withdrawal symptoms too.

 

When I say all my symptoms have gone now I mean all of them, including those mental symptoms too. And like you say with the windows, they do just go. So that is what it's like now that I'm recovered.

 

When I was about 3 years off the medication I had therapy for about 6 months roughly, to try to deal with these symptoms. I honestly don't think I got any benefit from therapy at all. Other than having someone to talk to once a week, I don't think it helped at all. All of the techniques and things we tried didn't have any impact and the symptoms were just as bad as they always were.

 

I'd say that your brain is fine and don't worry about it learning bad habits that will stick around. I think that's just a natural response to the symptoms. Now that I'm recovered my mind feels fine and free, so once the symptoms go it's much easier to feel calm and settled. So no I don't think there will be any lingering bad habits or anything of the sort.

 

I basically found that every symptom just improved or went away on it's own. And anything i did to actively intervene or try and improve it never worked anyway. So really I'd just recommend trying not to focus on the symptoms (not easy I know) and really focusing on trying to take care of yourself as best you can. Try to eat as well as you can and start exercising. I just think that your mind and body are doing the healing in the background and you just have to let it do so.

 

Honestly what you've said is exactly right in my opinion. Just chill and let you mind and body get on with it. Just keep going as best you can and get on with your day to day life and try to focus on other things. And in time you will see improvements. CBT really didn't do much, if anything to help me to be honest. That's not to say it can't help for some people, but for me it didn't. Best thing you can do is to look after yourself as best you can.

 

Time is probably the biggest healer really. It's a case of long term gain with all of this. But yeah, I don't think there's much we can actually do to improve the symptoms in the sort term unfortunately. I got to a point where I just accepted that they were there and tried to just make the best of my life despite them. I thought of all the things id like to do with my life and what I would be doing if I wasn't in withdrawal. I then just started to try to do them in spite of the symptoms. I think that helped a little bit. But in the meantime I was focusing on that and then time, and my mind and body's natural healing did the real work. And then I started to feel the benefits which I still feel today and am so grateful for.

 

I hope this helps a bit. Obviously you'll need to make your own decisions about what you can and can't do to help yourself, but this is just my experience and how it was for me. All the best ❤️

 

[theopold]

Hello @Ariel I hope you are doing well!  I had a very difficult night last night, just incredibly frightening.  For reasons I do not completely understand, I continue to struggle with this fear that I can literally think myself crazy.  I know this isn't actually possible, but it is one of those intrusive/obsessive/looping thoughts we were both mentioning above. The cycle often starts with some form of DP/DR, which then quickly leads to that fear of going crazy.  I know it's another example of the fear of fear cycle, but for whatever reason it's very powerful and basically - to this point, at least - none of my coping techniques are working very well.

 

Anyway, after a truly horrible and frightening night, I am just trying to hold on today.  I know these feelings won't last forever, and I do still believe I will make it through this, but I am just feeling so lost and alone right now.   Please keep me in your thoughts, and send me a mental hug when you read this...

 

      

[LukeUK]

To be able to say that symptoms are improving this early on, is good, even though you are still having a difficult time.

 

I suggest you re-evaluate "occasional use" of a strong anti-histamine. They are not totally dissimilar to many psychiatric drugs, at least in terms of how they act on your histamine system.

 

You want your body to return to its pre-drug baseline. Taking further drugs that disrupt that might provide short-term symptom relief, but would consider whether it is likely to help your recovery in the long term

[theopold]

Hello @LukeUK

 

Thank you very much for your comments. I appreciate the support. Regarding the diphenhydramine, you remind me that I actually need to update my signature file. I used it a couple of times, but have since stopped using it.  

 

It seems we both had a fairly short-term period of usage?  I know in my case, at least, that certainly adds to the challenge in terms of what I'm currently going through. Regarding your own situation, I am very sorry to know that you're still struggling.  How has your own journey been to this point, are you seeing much improvement?

[LukeUK]

If you read my thread, it describes the process I've been through. I will warn you though, it isn't a fountain of positivity.

 

For reference, I was too cognitively impaired to do a jigsaw at many points during the first months, could barely stand up to get myself a glass of water and at 7 months I was in hospital with severe physical symptoms.

 

I don't say this to downplay your symptoms, only to point out that if you are improving, hopefully that will continue and it will get easier in time.

 

Considering the number of drugs you've taken, the fact that you're 5 months off and seeing improvements, and even wondering if overthinking and anxiety is making it worse, I'd definitely reiterate that you're making good progress.

[theopold]

Hi @LukeUK

 

16 hours ago, LukeUK said:

Considering the number of drugs you've taken, the fact that you're 5 months off and seeing improvements, and even wondering if overthinking and anxiety is making it worse, I'd definitely reiterate that you're making good progress.

 

Thank you for this.  In terms of my wondering if "overthinking and anxiety is making it worse", I've actually been giving this a fair amount of thought lately.  As has been pointed out to me by folks here who's thoughts and opinions I respect, there is a not unusual tendency sometimes to essentially "doubt" the ongoing impact, or extent, of withdrawal symptoms. 

 

That said, I have noticed in my case, at least, that sometimes doing things despite the heightened state of anxiety, fear, etc - for example, going to the gym, or meeting a friend in a social situation - can sometimes lead to a change in an ongoing wave.  FYI, when I say "change", lol, it can sometimes be either a "good" or a "bad" change! 

 

Taking last night as an example...as mentioned in an earlier post, in terms of my ongoing mental symptoms yesterday was an extremely challenging day for most of the day.  And yet, I made a conscious decision to go for my normal weekend bicycle ride in the afternoon.  Happily, I did in fact survive this bike ride, and actually felt a little bit of relief at the conclusion of my ride. 

 

Sadly, the intense anxiety returned in full force shortly thereafter.  And so it remained until I decided to go out - very briefly - to listen to my friend's band, who was playing a gig at a local club.  I had very mixed feelings about doing so, but I did want to "support" my friend and his band, and I told myself the location was close to home and I could leave at any time.

 

Point of all this being...as a result of going to see my friend's band, I actually slipped out of my wave and into a window - which then lasted all of last night into a good part of the day today.  Now...what, if anything, does that mean in terms of the status of my ongoing healing journey, and does it imply anything about potential options for anyone else struggling with withdrawal right now?  Who knows!! 

 

I guess I just mention it here and now because I DO feel that maybe it is sometimes possible to "change the channel" in this way?  I also personally feel that, as per Claire Weekes' remarks on the topic, a part of the healing journey is simply gaining this type of "experience".  Meaning...lived examples of learning how to help ourselves truly know we are healing -  or even sometimes just help ourselves to better cope?            

[LukeUK]

@theopold My point is at 5 months off you're having windows, you're riding a bike, going to concerts, seeing friends socially, going to the gym and so on.

 

If that's where you are after 5 months, maybe at say, 8 months you'll be doing all that, and even more, and it won't be so hard. If that's where you are at not yet half a year off, you might be doing really quite well at a full year off.

 

It is hard now, but hopefully in more time it will get easier.

[theopold]

@LukeUK

 

First and foremost, thank you very much for your kind words, and also your positive thoughts!  And yes, I certainly do understand your point. It's just that in the last few days I've been hit with waves of such incredible intensity, that I almost feel like maybe I've been doing - or pushing myself - too much? 

 

Going to the gym, or going for a bike ride, are things that I felt were important to try and do, and as implied in my earlier post, might also be "helpful", or "cathartic". But doing such activities certainly involves a significant amount of stress and anxiety right now. And so, as I say, I'm wondering if I may be paying a bit of a price in terms of the agony of my recent waves? 🤷🏽‍♂️ 

[LukeUK]

If you feel like it is too much, then do not push yourself too hard. There's a middle ground, but only you can find it.

 

I suggest substituting strenuous things like dedicated workouts with walking in nature etc.

 

It's difficult for me to make better suggestions, I don't really feel anxiety.

[theopold]

Hello @LukeUK

 

10 hours ago, LukeUK said:

If you feel like it is too much, then do not push yourself too hard. There's a middle ground, but only you can find it.

 

Yes, you are right!  

 

10 hours ago, LukeUK said:

It's difficult for me to make better suggestions, I don't really feel anxiety.

 

Yes, after reading about your history, I understand that you face different challenges.  I am very sorry that you continue to struggle, and again, I thank you for your kind words and thoughtful comments 🙏

[theopold]

I'm feeling like I should do an update tonight.  The last few days have been strange - or, should I say, stranger than usual.  I've had windows that come on suddenly/spontaneously and can last for hours; other times I've had similarly sudden windows that last from mere minutes, up to maybe an hour, or so.  In between are waves, of course (not a lot of WD "normal" right now) and lately these waves have been particularly nasty. 

 

In addition to all of the above, I seem to be experiencing more traditional anxiety attacks - as well as the occasional panic attack - as well.  The difference being, to my mind, at least, that these "attacks" (anxiety, or panic) are more periodic, if you will, than a general, constant, relentless, wave state.  They are also often much more "situational" - triggered by a trip to a store, for example.  And finally, when I'm dealing with these attacks, I can often come home and just meditate, and lean into, the anxiety or panic, and get them to - typically - subside.  Waves, OTOH, it's just...try as many coping skills as you can, but...very often it it what it is, until it isn't. 

 

So yeah, there's all that.  And, my insomnia is getting a bit worse, of late.  Previously, I was waking up often during the night, but a vast majority of the time, I was able to get back to sleep, and so I would often achieve 6-7 hours of total, albeit often interrupted, sleep.  In recent days, however, a good night is often 4-5 hours, and I'm also often waking up from very strange dreams and/or with immediate and very, very scary and obsessive thoughts.  So yeah, less sleep sucks already, but...coming awake into full blown fear of fear is...just...horrible.  I'd say it's "unbearable", but obviously that's not an option, more's the pity.

 

And finally, because I can sometimes go days without any real human interaction, I sincerely cherish the opportunity to talk with one of my sisters back in America.  Me personally, I'd prefer to talk to her twice a day, every day, lol, but...I try to take a "balanced" approach instead because, selfishly, lol, I don't want to reach any kind of saturation point, if you will, with her. 

 

Unfortunately, however, there are occasional conversations like the one today.  Long story short, I was at a point in my conversation with my sister where I was essentially trying to be honest about my situation/thoughts vis-a-vis the S-word.  Now, obviously, this is NOT an easy, or happy, topic with a loved one, or family member.  But, just cutting to the chase, it essentially "came up" in our conversation and so I addressed the topic in as honest and open - and sensitive - a manner as I could.

 

Well so, somewhat understandably, this led to the suggestions from my sister that...could all this really be WD symptoms, do you really think you should be looking to a forum for guidance and/or support, I know lots of people who have taken AD's and had absolutely no issues, shouldn't you talk to a professional, what do I mean about going to a hospital and being poly-drugged, and even if that DID happen, isn't it better than, you know, the S-word thing??? 

 

Now, like I say, I GET all that.  I do.  It's just...the unintended effect of such discussion is to add more doubt and confusion into my own efforts to, you know, keep it together, and, you know, hopefully...SURVIVE.  Essentially, I end up questioning pretty much everything.  And that situation, of course, sends me into a complete tailspin.  So yeah, no one's "fault" at all, obviously, but I'm a complete wreck right now.  And too, it's very frightening to find yourself asking the question...if it ever DID become truly unbearable, as in, you know, serious thoughts of S-word bad, WOULD it be better to go and get hospitalized and poly-drugged? 

 

Pretty much universally, the answer I've seen to that last question is...no. It only appears to lead to substantial increases in suffering, extensive increases in the healing journey, etc, etc.  And, based on my own interactions with medical professionals as well, I am kinda inclined to believe such very undesirable outcomes are pretty much inevitable.  Soooooooo....the presumed upside is...you are (technically) still alive and kicking, while being hospitalized???  Yaaaaay, lol.  Which leaves me with a question...what CAN you do when things are very, very, very, very bad?  And no, that's actually not a "hypothetical" question at the moment.  What do folks do when the agony becomes well and truly unbearable?     

[AAOffZ]

1 hour ago, theopold said:

What do folks do when the agony becomes well and truly unbearable?     

Tell myself over and over again that my brain will heal. Healing hurts, and then I remind myself that I’ve been in the thick of it before and it passed. the wave does have an end. 

[theopold]

Hello, @AAOffZ

 

9 minutes ago, AAOffZ said:

Tell myself over and over again that my brain will heal. Healing hurts, and then I remind myself that I’ve been in the thick of it before and it passed. the wave does have an end. 

 

Thank you for your comment, and for sharing your suggestions as well.  I will add this to my list of mantras!  I've stopped in to read your own thread a few times in the past and I am so pleased to know that you are in a good place these days - except the toothache!!  I'm waaaay overdue for a cleaning, along with some fillings, but...I'm too chicken to go right now, lol 😬

[Ariel]

Hi @theopold

 

3 hours ago, theopold said:

Which leaves me with a question...what CAN you do when things are very, very, very, very bad?  And no, that's actually not a "hypothetical" question at the moment.  What do folks do when the agony becomes well and truly unbearable?     

 

Are you familiar with this website?

I find it helpful in a pinch.

 

As I think I've mentioned before, I also find it helpful to to call various hotlines staffed by volunteers qualified to speak with people in crisis. I never talk to them about WD or any psychiatric-sounding issues. Mostly I use this as a way to connect with another human being and have a conversation -- if nothing else, then to pass the time and provide some distraction from the intensity of pain I'm experiencing in the moment. Depending on the person on the other end, the conversations can be pleasant, banal, meaningful, annoying. It has yet to fail to get me out of my head and bring me to a slightly different, more tolerable place by the end of the call. I usually call the national hotlines where I live, however I have at times used national US hotlines (there's no requirement that one must be in the US to call them).

 

For me there is no doubt whatsoever that any sort of contact with the psychiatric system would not be helpful, and would most likely be harmful and further complicate my situation. Been there, done that -- numerous times -- and it has gotten me into this mess. Psychiatry/hospitalization is simply not an option in my case. Knowing this I have to find non-psychiatric ways to get through.

 

The core of coping when in anguish is to remember that what one is experiencing is temporary and it will pass. We have survived every single thing we've ever been through up until this very moment, and we can/will survive this moment, too. When in agony, we can break things down into the smallest possible increments -- a breath, an inhale, an exhale, the blink of an eye, one moment, one second on the clock, one way of a dog's tail, whatever -- we can make up our own tiny units of measurement. Each increment is a little pocket of presence in which we are alive and surviving, and we can then practice being in that one pocket at a time. All we have to do is be in that one little pocket, and that's how we make it to the next little pocket, and the next, and the next, for however long we need to. And eventually, things shift, as they always do.

 

Our moderator Onmyway has this quote in her drug signature:

"Nothing so small as a moment is insurmountable, and moments are all that we have. You have survived every trial and tribulation that life has thrown at you up until this very instant. When future troubles come—and they will come—a version of you will be born into that moment that can conquer them, too." - Kevin Koenig

 

As we go on, we get lots of practice trying out various non-drug coping techniques. Some work better for us than others, we all have our favorites. Along the way we get to select which ones we prefer and add them to our custom toolbox. I don't know that the pain gets easier, per se; it does seem we get more skilled at dealing with it as we get to know ourselves better and can rely on past experience of having successfully come through hard times before. I find that I'm a lot less impressed, so to speak, by whatever sensations and impulses are being involuntarily generated at any given time via the mere fact of my complex physiology; this helps me be less reactive and keep more space between myself and the goings-on, so that I might respond rather than react.

 

In support of all of the above, practicing some sort of mindfulness or meditation (there are many different kinds of mindfulness and meditation practices, doesn't have to be cross-legged on a cushion to count) regularly -- meaning, daily, or several times a day, regardless of how one is feeling or what acute state one may find oneself in -- is foundational. This is because it trains the brain to notice what is happening without necessarily blending with it, building resilience. Gaining/raising/cultivating this awareness is essential to inserting that space between oneself and one's suffering, and that space is what allows one to respond rather than react. It's great to use the tools and coping mechanisms when we're in the thick of it, however most of the work is done when we're feeling somewhat okay, not necessarily in an emergency. The more we practice when the house isn't on fire, the better we equipped we'll be when we start to sense smoke, prepared and ready to respond from a more centered, grounded, non-reactive space within.

 

It can also be helpful to have a sort of plan or protocol in place for when the sh*t hits the fan, especially if we know that we have a tendency to panic and not be able to think clearly when overwhelmed with pain/suffering. I mean this literally -- one might write out a little list for oneself for "Options for When Things Feel Unbearable" or something like that. Almost doesn't matter what's on the list, it can be anything like: 

a) get up, go to the fridge, get some cold water, pour it into a glass, drink a cold glass of water (NB, useful to spell things out and make things very specific and actionable, bc when the mind is truly overwhelmed, if the list just says, "drink a glass of water," that can be too big a mouthful; really break things down into steps)

b) find dog and give dog a hug, snuggle with dog, hold dog close

c) contact X (i.e. email them, message them, call them) and talk to them now or set up a phone date to talk ASAP

d) reach out to ____ specific hotline

e) log on to SA and connect with anyone else who is online at that time (bc SA is an international site spanning pretty much all global time zones, there's almost always someone else online; and if not, there are always many posts from people asking for help, to whom one might reply to offer a helping hand; one of the best distractions there is, and an excellent channel-changer; if/when possible, try shifting focus from "what can i get, who can help me" to "what might i give, whom might i help" -- "ask not what others can do for you, but what you can do for others" -- it is brilliantly effective at shifting modes and benefits our brains in more ways than one)

etc.

 

Such lists are highly individual and ever evolving, it's just great to have them on hand and easily accessible.

I find that even just the process of thinking through such a list and compiling it (of course best done when one is in a somewhat reasonable state) is very soothing and helps me feel prepared and safe, which in turn takes the edge off of any anticipatory anxiety that might arise related to future episodes. It can also be helpful to share one's list with another -- post one's list on SA, or share it with someone trusted. That lets some tension out as well.

 

I also find it indispensable to schedule my week ahead of time as much as possible, setting up appointments involving other people at regular intervals. Doesn't matter so much who, as long as they are "safe, non-toxic" people/spaces, and require physical get-togethers. Phone calls count as physical connection, too, as does volunteering, community service, exercise classes, social dates, etc. When going through a hard time I try not to go too many days in a row without human contact bc it can leave me too much in my own head. The advantage of scheduling human contact is that it provides a sort of touchstone that can help me make it through difficult days/nights/moments -- I can say to myself, "I just have to make it till Tuesday when I see X," and this frames any current suffering as playing out within a finite, delineated interval. Knowing I've got distractions/disruptors/interrupters planned helps me get through.

 

Any sort of distraction can be useful, big or small. Distracting via bodily sensations, for example seeking out cold (ice cubes, cold water, air conditioning, cold washcloth against skin, etc.) or heat (warm washcloth, hot shower, warm bath, body heat from cuddling with an animal, etc.) can serve as a sort of physical channel change when cognitively changing the channel can be challenging. Constructive disruptions are the name of the game. Some people find urge interrupters such as EFT very helpful, are you familiar with EFT and fast EFT? I don't have much experience with it myself, linking the topic for you; there's a lot more info on this on YouTube and elsewhere online.

 

Music works well for me as a disruptor/urge interrupter, particularly when my mind is so uncooperative that it's impossible to follow movie/literary/podcast content. Music effectively shifts modes (maybe it can actually influence brain waves, too? don't remember where i read that but i think there's some scientific evidence of that).

 

Do you ever listen to music, theopold? If so, what are some of your favorite songs and compositions?

 

Healing vibes,
Ariel

 

[LukeUK]

3 hours ago, theopold said:

Which leaves me with a question...what CAN you do when things are very, very, very, very bad?  And no, that's actually not a "hypothetical" question at the moment.  What do folks do when the agony becomes well and truly unbearable?     

 

At 5 months off, you are probably stressing and hoping for relief, analysing every symptom, every thought.

 

I would assume that things are going to be difficult for quite some time, and to essentially write that time off. You're 5 months off, and on a bad night you are still sleeping 4-5 hours. That's less than you'd like but it is still sleep. The sleep will lead to healing, but it is likely to take many nights. In my experience, sleep improvements are not linear, and this drop in sleep quality is likely to be on the road to further sleep improvements. Maybe after this period, you'll get 7-8 hours instead of 6-7, or the quality and depth of sleep will be better.

 

If the poor sleep improved, and the anxiety improved, you'd be getting somewhere. They are very likely to improve in time. It could be a long time, it could be only 2 months.

 

My suggestion would be to pick a date, and survive until then. You've done 5 months, it is less than that until the end of the year, for example. Maybe by then you'll be getting more sleep and having less anxiety, and it will all be manageable. Or, perhaps tell yourself you'll do another 7 months until you're a year off, and see where you are then.

 

In the timeframe that you decide to survive through, focus as hard as you can on taking care of yourself. If strenuous exercise is too much, take a gentle daily walk in nature. If bike rides help but you don't want to overdo it, go for a shorter, slow one and just focus on your surroundings. In short, do relaxing versions of everything as much as you can. Eat healthy food, not processed stuff. Go to bed at the same time, and tell yourself that even if you aren't asleep, just laying with your eyes closed and brain on idle is *still* rest, and *still* good for you. You'll sleep as much as you sleep, all you can control is going to bed and resting your body and importantly your brain.

 

In the early stages of TBI, concussions etc. I've seen recommendations that people have plenty of idle time for their brains- no stimulation, no music, nothing. Just rest. You might not want to go that far in the day time, as distraction is good for anxiety, but I believe that stressing over how much you sleep is counter productive, and that you should just rest your brain overnight no matter what.

 

In short, pick a time, and focus on surviving until then and taking care of yourself until then, and just assume that while you're doing that it'll be horrible and anxious until then, but you can aid that healing and survival.

 

Maybe there will be windows and OK times before that time, but they're all a bonus. All you must do is survive and self care.

 

  

On 5/15/2024 at 9:51 PM, 3BBsGurkPog said:

I did unfortunately but like everything else, it went away. I am calm, relaxed and free from anxiety now. Two years off is a long time and I know how hard it is. All I will say is that if the average human lives for 80 odd years (I don't know what the average life expectancy is) 2 years of suffering is worth it if you get your life back and you enjoy many years of health and happiness, which you will.

 

This is a quote from a success story that I think is important for you.

[theopold]

Hello @Ariel

 

19 hours ago, Ariel said:

Are you familiar with this website?

I find it helpful in a pinch.

 

As I think I've mentioned before, I also find it helpful to to call various hotlines staffed by volunteers qualified to speak with people in crisis. I never talk to them about WD or any psychiatric-sounding issues. Mostly I use this as a way to connect with another human being and have a conversation -- if nothing else, then to pass the time and provide some distraction from the intensity of pain I'm experiencing in the moment. Depending on the person on the other end, the conversations can be pleasant, banal, meaningful, annoying. It has yet to fail to get me out of my head and bring me to a slightly different, more tolerable place by the end of the call. I usually call the national hotlines where I live, however I have at times used national US hotlines (there's no requirement that one must be in the US to call them).

 

Thank you for the link to that website.  I think it's very true that one reaches a certain point when pain outweighs coping resources.  And, that's a large part of what I've been struggling with lately.  Interestingly, I've recently felt like I was actually trying to undermine my own coping mechanisms - some sort self-destructive tendency?  But then, someone who's knowledge about WD I respect, shared with me that this idea - actively undermining your own coping skills - is actually just another WD symptom!  Which, should not come as a surprise to me?

 

Beyond that, I did actually call the Good Samaritan helpline in the US recently.  The person I spoke with was obviously a kind soul and a caring person, but...they sounded half-asleep, lol.  And too, I didn't realize that they have like a 20-minute time

limit on each phone call?  I guess I kind of assumed they couldn't talk for several hours, but...20 minutes??  Do other similar helplines have similar constraints?  Just curious...

 

19 hours ago, Ariel said:

All we have to do is be in that one little pocket, and that's how we make it to the next little pocket, and the next, and the next, for however long we need to. And eventually, things shift, as they always do.

 

Yes, I'm with you conceptually on this, and we've actually talked about this topic previously when I was asking how is it that some of the long-term folks on here cope over such lengthy periods of time.  Thing is, I guess I'm just not very good at putting this concept into actual practice yet?  For me, at least, slowing things down to a moment by moment level is just a little challenging right now?

 

19 hours ago, Ariel said:

The more we practice when the house isn't on fire, the better we equipped we'll be when we start to sense smoke, prepared and ready to respond from a more centered, grounded, non-reactive space within.

 

This is a good point!  I do already practice a lot of mindfulness, meditation, etc, but...to this point I AM only doing it when the house is on fire.  I'm going to make a point of practicing more often, so...thanks for this 😊

 

19 hours ago, Ariel said:

I also find it indispensable to schedule my week ahead of time as much as possible, setting up appointments involving other people at regular intervals.

 

Yep, I try to do this also.  And, it does usually help.  Unfortunately, right now I just don't have enough humans to interact with as I'd like.  But!!  I did just find another volunteer opportunity 🤗  Starting this Saturday, I'm going to join an ongoing program run by the Rotary Club that teaches Thai children to swim!  How cool is that??  So yeah, I am TRYING to develop more ways to increase my regular social interactions 🙏🙏

 

19 hours ago, Ariel said:

Some people find urge interrupters such as EFT very helpful, are you familiar with EFT and fast EFT? I don't have much experience with it myself, linking the topic for you; there's a lot more info on this on YouTube and elsewhere online.

 

 

I am familiar with "tapping", and I do use it as one of my coping techniques.  I find it to be helpful quite often.  While I am tapping, I also speak aloud one, or several, of my mantras.  I am not, however, familiar with "fast EFT?

 

19 hours ago, Ariel said:

Do you ever listen to music, theopold? If so, what are some of your favorite songs and compositions?

 

Yes, I am pretty much ALWAYS listening to music, lol.  Most of the time, I listen to an Internet radio channel called "Folk Forward".  It's free, no commercials, etc.  Unfortunately, they do not have a HUGE playlist, so it repeats fairly often, and from what I can tell they do not update said playlist very often, but...often I really don't mind these "drawbacks".  The channel is often just my constant background companion.  I also listen to a few channels on AccuRadio...another folk channel, an alternative channel, a 60's music channel, light rock, love songs, etc.  Point being, I guess...music I enjoy that's not too jarring, lol.  Only exception would be...sometimes when I'm going for a bike ride, or at the gym, I will listen to more rock-like music.  With this louder, rowdier music, sometimes I can handle it, sometimes I can't 🤷‍♂️

 

As always, Ariel, thank you for your kind, thoughtful, generous, and loving comments 😊 I hope you are well, my dear, and as I've mentioned many times to you...you are often in my thoughts 💖 

[theopold]

Hello @LukeUK

 

Having recently read your own thread, I am aware of the fact that you have your own challenges that you are dealing with at this point in your life.  Bearing this in mind, I really want you to know that it means a great deal to me that you are so kind and so generous in sharing your thoughts and suggestions, etc, with me here. 🙏

 

19 hours ago, LukeUK said:

At 5 months off, you are probably stressing and hoping for relief, analysing every symptom, every thought.

 

Yep.  This is absolutely true, lol.  In this way, I can often be my own worst enemy lately...sigh.

 

19 hours ago, LukeUK said:

I would assume that things are going to be difficult for quite some time, and to essentially write that time off. You're 5 months off, and on a bad night you are still sleeping 4-5 hours. That's less than you'd like but it is still sleep. The sleep will lead to healing, but it is likely to take many nights. In my experience, sleep improvements are not linear, and this drop in sleep quality is likely to be on the road to further sleep improvements. Maybe after this period, you'll get 7-8 hours instead of 6-7, or the quality and depth of sleep will be better.

 

If the poor sleep improved, and the anxiety improved, you'd be getting somewhere. They are very likely to improve in time. It could be a long time, it could be only 2 months.

 

Lots of good comments from you here.  I appreciate the common sense perspective your providing, as well as the tone of optimism!  And, of course, the necessary "reality" check, as well. 

 

19 hours ago, LukeUK said:

My suggestion would be to pick a date, and survive until then. You've done 5 months, it is less than that until the end of the year, for example. Maybe by then you'll be getting more sleep and having less anxiety, and it will all be manageable. Or, perhaps tell yourself you'll do another 7 months until you're a year off, and see where you are then.

 Again...frank, common sense suggestions/advice.  At this point, I think the end of the year represents a manageable target.  And, honestly, LukeUK, I would be so pleased and happy if at that time we could BOTH be sharing signs of progress, hope, improvement, etc 🙏🙏

 

19 hours ago, LukeUK said:

In short, pick a time, and focus on surviving until then and taking care of yourself until then, and just assume that while you're doing that it'll be horrible and anxious until then, but you can aid that healing and survival.

 

Maybe there will be windows and OK times before that time, but they're all a bonus. All you must do is survive and self care.

 

It's damn scary to fully "accept" this reality, isn't it?  Meaning...the reality of "horrible and anxious", lol.  But...I mean, you're not wrong about this, sadly.  And, frankly, acceptance really is the wisest path here - if not also perhaps the ONLY path, haha!  And yes, I often, often hang on to the awareness, fact, etc, that...All I must do right now is just....SURVIVE.

 

19 hours ago, LukeUK said:

This is a quote from a success story that I think is important for you.

 

Thank you for this.  I don't know if "ironic" is the right word?  But...I find it "interesting", I guess, that "time" can take on a few different contexts, if you will?  From @Ariel's thoughtful reminder about the benefit, if not the actual necessity sometimes, of living moment to moment, to your own comments about "picking a time" to choose to carry on till, as well as the line from your quote about...having the proper perspective on 2 years of suffering vs many subsequent years of health and happiness.  Don't know if there's anything necessarily very deep in commenting on this, just found it interesting, I guess 🤭

 

I hope you are well there today, my friend 🙏 

[theopold]

Ah, hell.  To quote a line from a song...I did a bad, bad, thing.  Been really struggling the last couple/few weeks.  As a result, on one particular day that was very, very bad a couple weeks ago, I took one very small dose of clonazepam.  It definitely helped me sleep, and the next day felt more relaxed as well.  

 

Still, I didn't want to take another dose, even a small one.  But then, about 5 days later, I did take another small dose.  Again, it seemed to help and I didn't experience any significant side effects.  After that second dose, long story short, I took the clonazepam two more times, with the last dose being last night.

 

And, yeah, the effects of the - once again, very small dose - were pretty bad last night.  So...lesson learned, and I am totally done with that little "experiment".  At this point, I'm hoping I haven't set myself back TOO far, and also that I can get to a place of at least a steady state of suffering today.  Either way, I'm just trying to accept it for what it is, and just focus on getting through right now from moment to moment.

 

Obviously, I knew that taking even a very small dose of a benzo at this point might not be a very good idea.  And, as it turns out, it in fact was not.  But...I am trying not to beat myself up too much about it.  I guess I'm feeling like it's just a situation where I continue to at least try different things to ease the really challenging time I'm going through at the moment. 

 

More than anything else, the obsessive, intrusive, looping thoughts are just incredibly difficult for me.  As I believe others have mentioned here, I don't know if there is any "solution" that anyone's found to even at least ease this horrible, horrible, experience.  Anyways, just trying to keep it real, as it were, and to provide updates here even when I do something that maybe wasn't a very smart idea. 

 

As I say, I am suffering terribly right now, and so I tried something.  It didn't work, I'm probably a little worse off right now as a result, but...the bottom line is still the same:  I have no choice but to carry on, hang in there, and just hope for the continued strength to survive.