Fighting the urge to give up and return to full dose

[Kat66]

Does anyone else ever feel like they can’t take any more and want to return to a full dose of their medication? I want to know that I’m not the only one who feels this and is it ok to discuss it or will it be seen as defeatist?

 

I have reached that stage several times and am not sure how much more I can take of this suffering. No meaningful windows in months  and a state of constant CNS freeze/survival where I feel like I’m shutting down. My thinking is so distorted I don’t see a way back to normal thinking. How much of this are you supposed to take before you admit defeat? I know we’re all supposed to be about fighting and surviving and battling but we’re only human and I need to know I’m not alone in sometimes feeling this is just. Too. Hard.

 

Thank you.

[Ariel]

Hi @Kat66

Great topic!

 

You are so totally NOT ALONE in feeling this way <3

 

I've been at this a long time and can certainly relate to yearning for a chemical/quick/convenient solution, especially in the worst moments.

It's good that you're talking about it, there's no shame at all. 

The suffering is real, the struggle is real. WD is hell on earth. 

It's only natural we should long for relief!! 

 

The main reason I haven't gone back on any drugs or reinstated is because it just doesn't work. It wouldn't help matters, and it would most likely make things worse. 

 

And, having said that -- I actually DID go back on drugs at one point. At the time I was 3 years into escitalopram PAWS and didn't know it. I was in a truly wicked wave and had no context for it whatsoever. In this moment of crisis and profound vulnerability, I turned to my GP for support -- it hadn't occurred to me to go back on drugs, but that's what the GP repeatedly pushed for. Out of sheer desperation and lack of any better ideas, thus influenced by my GP (and the culture at large, incl. a close friend who insisted I should take the same meds she was on), I reverted back to deeply engrained psychiatric-brainwashed-thinking of, "I guess I can't live without drugs, guess I need them forever," and, "No big deal, it's just medication," chemical imbalance bunk, etc. And so I started taking vortioxetine.

 

Well guess what? The crisis (what I now know was a wave and withdrawal symptoms) cleared up overnight and I felt perfectly fine the next day -- if by fine you mean feeling like a brain in a jar, for all intents and purposes pretty much dead inside. Because that's how I felt, and I realized: OMG, this feeling I have now, this perfectly content, weird nothing/empty satisfied apathetic indifferent not-caring no-pain feeling like a brain in a jar -- that was my normal for 20+ years!! And I had never really felt it before because I was so used to it, it was my default for so long, I didn't know any other way to feel/be. But suddenly, because I'd been off escitalopram for so long before that, suddenly I had a clear point of contrast. And in that contrast I realized how utterly DISGUSTING it felt to be a brain in a jar, cut off from myself, my body, my soul. And I knew I didn't want to live that way and couldn't go back to that. I also found it highly suspicious that all my discomfort (remember, at the time I had no idea about WD) had vanished overnight. So I started searching online for how to stop vortioxetine, whether I could just stop from one day to the next or whether I needed to taper. And voilà, that's how I found SA and learned about WD for the very first time and realized I'd actually been in protracted withdrawal for YEARS prior -- and all at once I realized that I'd probably f*cked myself by taking the vortioxetine, most likely adding years of WD suffering (this fear has since been confirmed). 

 

So yeah -- I do understand the fantasy of going back on drugs to feel better / make WD go away. And I've kinda been there, done that -- not really consciously, because I didn't know I was in WD at the time, I didn't yet know how any of this works, but still. And it was a massive mistake, I wish I could do it over again and never take those godforsaken vortioxetine teardrop tablets (their shape is the only apt thing about that atrocious drug). Because I', serving consecutive sentences back-to-back, and that lapse in judgment has added years of debilitating illness to this already arduous slog, and cost years of life. NOT worth it for a second. 

 

I actually really, really hate thinking about that and try not to, however I'm sharing my story to illustrate:

a) you are NOT alone, not by a long shot

b) (in my case) going back on drugs is NOT worth it, it doesn't fix anything or make anything better

c) should you ever decide to return to higher doses and resume regular drug use, I would never judge you; I only ever wish you the best <3

 

These days when I'm suffering intensely and I get those thoughts about taking drugs again, I remind myself: it's a crapshoot. There's no certainty the drug will work, and I might very well kindle on them and f*ck myself up for even longer, again, except this time it will be way worse than with the vortioxetine, because with the vortioxetine I truly did not know better, and now I do know better. My eyes are wide f*cking open. And even if I did hazard the gamble, and even if it did "work" and I felt better, I'd be living in the dark, ominous, looming shadow of knowing about poop-out and long-term harm and inevitably having to someday once again get off the drug.

 

Not to mention global supply issues, which are only ever going to get worse and worse, and which present a real threat to future drug users not being able to source a steady, safe supply, leading to situations where people might be forced to CT or rapid taper. As much as I hate WD, as much as it has literally ruined my life as I knew it and disabled me, etc. -- I cherish the freedom of knowing that I am drug-free and not dependent on doctors, prescriptions, pharmaceutical manufacturers, factories, global supply chain, etc. Climate change, war, geopolitical instability all make it highly relevant to be drug-free and self-sustaining, however, wherever possible. I don't grow my own food, and I'm very much not self-sufficient, on the contrary; but at least I'm free of these stupid drugs and no longer fund the psychopharmacological industrial complex. 

 

I mean, whatever. We each have to find our own "why", identify or invent our own reasons and motivation for coming off the drugs and staying off -- IF that is indeed what we want for ourselves. No pressure at all to get off drugs, if you ask me. Had I known what I was getting into when I came off of escitalopram back in 2018 (!!!), I would certainly had thought long and hard about whether that was the right call, and whether that was the right time. I don't know what choice I would have made given the information and experience I have today. Same goes for starting the drugs in the first place, of course. Who among us gave informed consent to getting on this so-called medication??! Not me, that's for sure. 

 

For me, I know that when i have thoughts of returning to the drug, it's not because I want to return to the drug -- that thought is simply code for: Please grant me relief from this suffering. 

Remembering that is key and helps me stay the course. That, and cultivating curiosity about what it'll be like once I've healed enough to feel well. I've had a few pretty unbelievable windows where I've felt mind-blowingly good, like better than I ever have in my life probably, or since I was a small child. And I'm genuinely curious whether that could possibly be what awaits me on the other side of this bullsh*t nightmare. I also remind myself that I don't know when recovery will occur, and it might be closer than I think. Currently at 6+ years in, I hope I'm well on my way and past the halfway mark. And it would suck so bad to give up when good things could be just around the corner. Of course, I have no way of knowing that one way or another -- except someday in the future looking back and thanking my past self for holding steady and not caving.

 

It's like when you've put in time in that one queue at the supermarket, and then another one opens up, and you're like, should I change over? And then maybe you do, but as you're walking over to the other cashier, a few people squeeze in elongating that line, whilst simultaneously your original line somehow speeds up!? And by the time you're in your new position in the other queue, you look over and see that if you'd stayed in your original queue it would have been your turn by now, haha

Except -- maybe not, because if you'd stayed put where you were, none of the other shifts may have happened, and everything would be status quo. My point is, there's no way to know. There's no control group in the experiment that is the one unique you with the your one unique life. We just have to make the best decisions we can in the moment, with whatever information and resources are available to us at any given time; practicing present action from a place of love and acceptance and self-compassion, paying it forward to our future selves, with forgiveness and love and kindness for our past selves. 

 

You know?

 

Love to you, Kat. We're in this together <3

Ariel

[Kat66]

Wow @Ariel I wasn’t expecting anyone to reply to my topic as it might be too triggering but thank you for that comprehensive reply. 
 

I think sometimes I just get to a point where the suffering is so intense I’ll do anything to stop it. Another alternative is running away on my own and holing up in a remote cabin somewhere where I don’t have any life stressors and my CNS can nicely, quietly heal itself. That is such an intoxicating fantasy sometimes. Especially when the suffering appears to be worsening, not improving as the days go by. I’m not known for my patience, and sometimes can act like a small child having a tantrum…”make it stop!”…”just stop!”…”arrrrghh waaah waah!” Etc etc. I’ve never dug as deeply as I have over the last three years, and it would seem there could be potentially many more years of this to come. There are just some days where I’ve just run out of juice and want an easy ‘out’. I guess that’s when the real work starts.

 

Thanks again for replying Ariel, hugs x

[Jane318]

I relate so much to wanting to give up on this tapering business.  I have told more than one friend that if I had known beforehand what it was going to be like, I probably would not have started it.  I am nearly 70 and have been on ADs for almost 40 years, so what does it matter, I'm not going to live that much longer anyway, so why go through all this pain?  HOWEVER - I tried to taper too quickly and that is perhaps the main reason I am struggling so much now. Could this be true of you?  I had to reinstate at the next highest dosage and I am going to sit here for several months and until I am sure I am stable enough to continue.  Recommend you look into that if you haven't already.  Great links on the home page on this topic.   

 

Like Ariel, I was/am motivated about all the uncertainty around future availability.  None of us want to be dependent on these meds if (when) they are no longer available. 

 

I'm also afraid about messing up my CNS even more by going back on the meds.   

 

 Also, as difficult as this is, I have learned so much about myself through this - a lot of it was painful but also needful.  I realize the meds masked my emotions and negatively affected my relationships throughout my adult life.  I can't undo that, but I can choose to live differently in the future. 

 

Finally - One recurring theme on this site is that these "waves" are an indicator of healing.  That helps me - no matter how terrible I feel, I try to remember that there IS healing going on.  Each day, I just do what I can do and try to let go of everyone else's (and my own) expectations.

 

God bless you - prayed for you.

[Jane318]

1 minute ago, Jane318 said:

I relate so much to wanting to give up on this tapering business.  I have told more than one friend that if I had known beforehand what it was going to be like, I probably would not have started it.  I am nearly 70 and have been on ADs for almost 40 years, so what does it matter, I'm not going to live that much longer anyway, so why go through all this pain?  HOWEVER - I tried to taper too quickly and that is perhaps the main reason I am struggling so much now. Could this be true of you?  I had to reinstate at the next highest dosage and I am going to sit here for several months and until I am sure I am stable enough to continue.  Recommend you look into that if you haven't already.  Great links on the home page on this topic.   

 

Like Ariel, I was/am motivated about all the uncertainty around future availability.  None of us want to be dependent on these meds if (when) they are no longer available. 

 

I'm also afraid about messing up my CNS even more by going back on the meds.   

 

 Also, as difficult as this is, I have learned so much about myself through this - a lot of it was painful but also needful.  I realize the meds masked my emotions and negatively affected my relationships throughout my adult life.  I can't undo that, but I can choose to live differently in the future. 

 

Finally - One recurring theme on this site is that these "waves" are an indicator of healing.  That helps me - no matter how terrible I feel, I try to remember that there IS healing going on.  Each day, I just do what I can do and try to let go of everyone else's (and my own) expectations.

 

God bless you - prayed for you.

One more thought - Since you are vegan/vegetarian, might be sure you are getting enough complete protein and the Vitamin B's that meat provides - all very important for brain health / healing.

[Dahlia50]

@Kat66 I relate. Not that I want to take a full dose of medicine again. My body couldn't handle that now. But the suffering is inhumane and way too much. Years of suffering scares, completely agree. I'm there right now, surviving, I can't take this anymore. Tears over the situation. I'm trying to get my own thoughts out of this damaged brain. Want my life back.
Wondering how it turned out like this = too fast taper. And that I took this medication from the beginning = hurt me. The only thing little better is that I don't feel drugged and stuck in a bubble. It's shocking to realize how emotionally numb I've been. But instead I have a severe injury/WD which is much worse due to all the suffering.

How long ago since you went off? I don't know myself how to bear it. We are strong. But that doesn't really help everyday either. We are human beings who need relationships, income, joyful things and love. It is cruel to lose it because of this, I did.
You are not alone. It may not always be a comfort because it is NOT OK that many people suffer from this. But you are not alone.

I'm glad you are here, someone other than me who is in this.
Fighting friends.

Hug 🌻

[Kat66]

Thanks very much for your input @Jane318 I really appreciate it. I do try to get as much protein as I can, and will look into the B vit thing too.

 

I never even knew about the drug availability issue, that's a shock.

 

Like you, if I'd have known what WD was like I'd never have embarked on it, or at least I wouldn't have come off CT initially, and would have properly and slowly tapered. Hindsight eh?

 

[Kat66]

I don't know how we bear it sometimes either @Dahlia50. It really is UNBEARABLE sometimes, and the unbearable-ness goes on for weeks at a time, sometimes months. People ask me how I am and I don't know how to answer them. I think they think 'oh she's a bit depressed or anxious because of the drugs' or something, but that doesn't even come close. Your world turns into a grinding recurring horrorshow where you feel you are silently screaming and banging your fists against a glass wall staring out into the 'normal' world. A world from which you feel totally disconnected. You feel unheard and unacknowledged. You feel like this will go on forever and nothing you do can alter the way you feel. Your personality, what's left of it, your 'self' becomes worn down and mutates into something you don't recognise anymore. You become a meaningless, worthless blob. You just somehow get through each day and for what? Another one exactly the same the day after? You pray for these precious 'windows' which occasionally come along if you're lucky but vanish just as quickly. Windows are so cruel. And even when you're completely off the drug there's no guarantee things return to normal any time soon. I'm still tapering and will be doing for the foreseeable. 

 

I apologise for the complete lack of positivity in the above rant but it felt good to write down what this feels like in it's truthful state.

 

 

[Ariel]

@Kat66

 

1 hour ago, Kat66 said:

It really is UNBEARABLE sometimes, and the unbearable-ness goes on for weeks at a time, sometimes months. People ask me how I am and I don't know how to answer them. I think they think 'oh she's a bit depressed or anxious because of the drugs' or something, but that doesn't even come close. Your world turns into a grinding recurring horrorshow where you feel you are silently screaming and banging your fists against a glass wall staring out into the 'normal' world. A world from which you feel totally disconnected. You feel unheard and unacknowledged. You feel like this will go on forever and nothing you do can alter the way you feel. Your personality, what's left of it, your 'self' becomes worn down and mutates into something you don't recognise anymore. You become a meaningless, worthless blob. You just somehow get through each day and for what? Another one exactly the same the day after? You pray for these precious 'windows' which occasionally come along if you're lucky but vanish just as quickly. Windows are so cruel. And even when you're completely off the drug there's no guarantee things return to normal any time soon.

 

You describe it all too well. I can certainly relate. Know that you are not alone in feeling this way. Scant comfort, perhaps. 

 

According to your drug signature it looks like you've recently eliminated both caffeine and alcohol. Both of these substances have their own withdrawal/recovery curves, as you may know.

You may be feeling temporarily worse than usual because of your body adjusting to having quit caffeine and alcohol. If this is indeed the case, things will continue to improve, and overall there will be benefits for WD as well.

 

Here's a comment from @jon1 that he posted in the Caffeine topic, pasting it below in italics.

 

I stopped cold turkey. The jury seems to be out on whether tapering caffeine is better or not, but in my experience, most advice you'll find online is about avoiding the common withdrawal side effects - like headaches - that most people get, and aren't applicable to those of us withdrawing from ADs.

 

Quitting caffeine throws neurotransmitters out of kilter, even in a healthy person. So it makes sense that it will cause unpredictable symptoms for us.

 

I was lucky as I could work from home, so I didn't have the added stress of dealing with people or going out. So if that's a consideration for you, it might be best to take it really slowly.

 

I quit caffeine completely just under a year ago, and the first couple of months were brutal. It felt like all of my existing WD symptoms went into overdrive.

 

Things did improve, though, and I'm definitely glad I did. My daily 'normal' non-withdrawal anxiety has almost gone, and my sleep is much better.

 

I did try a decaf coffee a few months after quitting, and it was shocking how it affected me. I was climbing the walls with agitation and spent the entire day on edge.

 

I thought to myself 'I used to drink that at full strength every day?'. It's no wonder I've had anxiety for years.

[Jane318]

2 hours ago, Kat66 said:

Thanks very much for your input @Jane318 I really appreciate it. I do try to get as much protein as I can, and will look into the B vit thing too.

 

I never even knew about the drug availability issue, that's a shock.

 

Like you, if I'd have known what WD was like I'd never have embarked on it, or at least I wouldn't have come off CT initially, and would have properly and slowly tapered. Hindsight eh?

 

Regarding B Vitamins (and other supplements), recommend you read everything under the topic "Is there anything I can do to relieve my withdrawal symptoms?" on home page if you have not already.  First topic includes discussion about B vitamins: 

There is a general caution about  taking a supplement with multiple components as well as trying only one thing at a time and carefully monitoring results.  And the more I learn about food, nutrition, and manufactured vitamins, the more I am gravitating away from supplements in favor of food-based sources, just FYI. 

 

Based on recent labs, I know my B's are slightly low, even though I eat meat, so I am working in increase my intake of vitamin-rich meat (grass fed beef, including liver) and other foods that are rich in Bs and other vitamins.

[Jane318]

A couple other resources that I hope will help you right now, some posts I discovered this week:

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

For those who are feeling desperate or suicidal

The importance of recognizing you're feeling good

Shame, guilt, regret and self-criticism

 

I have just in the last year or so (it is never to late to learn!) that I can CHOOSE how I think and how I CHOOSE to think affects my brain in physical ways.  Neuroscience has shown this to be true.  Our destinies are not determined by fixed genes.   One of the posts above includes a link to a short but fascinating TED talk with a simple strategy to help “cement” the positive in the brain:  Hardwiring happiness: Dr. Rick Hanson at TEDxMarin 2013. 

 

My default has always been negative thinking, about myself, about other people, about my circumstances, especially now.  It is such hard work for me to choose to think differently - to practice gratitude, to thoughtfully reflect on positive experiences both past and present in order to help cement them in my brain, to reject the negative, and, as I am a Christian, to focus on God and His trustworthy promises instead of myself and other people.  Nonetheless, I am convinced that this is crucial to healing from ADs and I do want to get through this.  So I am working hard to be more aware of my thoughts so that I can choose to shift to healthier thinking and thus promote the healing process.  "For as he thinks in his heart, so is he" (Proverbs 23:7).

[Kat66]

@Ariel it IS comforting to know I'm not alone. It doesn't magically whisk away the horrible symptoms but it DOES help.  Thanks for the caffeine stuff. I haven't had caffeine for three years and am fine with the after effects of that. Alcohol is a different matter. I do occasionally have a drink. Very very rarely now as I know what the after effects are. Sometimes though I JUST GET THE POINT WHERE I WANT TO FEEL SOMETHING DIFFERENT, and I have a drink. I am only human and I have only so much willpower against this sh*tshow. I'm not sure I can give it up 100%, I mean really 100%. 

 

@Jane318 thanks for the additional B vit and diet info. While I won't be partaking in grass fed beef anytime soon I am mindful of the need for good fats and diet sourced vitamins as opposed to supplements. I do occasionally eat eggs and very occasionally a small amount of cheese. An thanks, I'll check out that section on the home page you mentioned.

 

x

[Ariel]

52 minutes ago, Kat66 said:

Thanks for the caffeine stuff. I haven't had caffeine for three years and am fine with the after effects of that.

Hi @Kat66

Congrats on being caffeine-free for 3 years! 

 

I must have misunderstood your drug sig where it says, Completely OFF caffeine (since July 21). I thought that meant July 21st, I guess it means July 2021? 

That's why I thought it was a very recent change. My mistake. 

 

Anyway, well done, I really do think it's an accomplishment going and staying caffeine-free. It's such a popular drug, most everyone around me is jacked up and wired on it. Once we stop using, it becomes clear how powerful it is, and how addictive. I confess I miss the positive effects -- I'm so. damn. tired. all the time and long for that just-right caffeinated boost that allows one to function and do things -- and also am glad to not have it be further mucking up WD.  

 

When the global supply chain collapses and people can't get their caffeine fix, we will be clear-eyed and sober -- and probably over WD by then, too! Fully conscious and present and drug-free just in time for the end of the world, LOL!! 

[jon1]

20 hours ago, Ariel said:

When the global supply chain collapses and people can't get their caffeine fix, we will be clear-eyed and sober -- and probably over WD by then, too! Fully conscious and present and drug-free just in time for the end of the world, LOL!! 

 

it's funny you should say that. I was watching a dystopian, post-apocalytic movie the other day, and commented to my other half that these movies and TV shows never show the vast number of the world's population that would go into immediate cold-turkey withdrawal from coffee, alcohol, benzos, antidepressants and thousands of other drugs.

 

Imagine going through what we're going through now while the world was ending around us!

[Ariel]

2 hours ago, jon1 said:

Imagine going through what we're going through now while the world was ending around us!

 

At least the outsides would match the insides, LOL!!

 

Incidentally, I have found that during these years of WD/PAWS, any time there has been an actual big-deal so-called outer-world circumstance that directly impacts me or requires my full psychospiritual embodied attention, like a real life event, I've received the grace of entering a state of clarity and presence. For example, when my cat died; or when a close friend of mine had a family crisis. Mysteriously, when it truly matters, the veil parts, the smoke clears, and I'm able to show up. After the fact is when I crash. 

 

Somehow I trust that the (acute*) apocalypse would see me in a window! (*arguably the collapse is already happening, albeit gradually, all around us)

 

Regardless, I feel like we'd be prepared. This is high-stress conditioning/training for the ages. According to pretty much every success story, people get through this hell and know it was the hardest thing they ever did and will ever have to do. Our bodies are regenerating nerves of steel! Bionic survivors unite <3

[jon1]

21 minutes ago, Ariel said:

 

At least the outsides would match the insides, LOL!!

 

Incidentally, I have found that during these years of WD/PAWS, any time there has been an actual big-deal so-called outer-world circumstance that directly impacts me or requires my full psychospiritual embodied attention, like a real life event, I've received the grace of entering a state of clarity and presence. For example, when my cat died; or when a close friend of mine had a family crisis. Mysteriously, when it truly matters, the veil parts, the smoke clears, and I'm able to show up. After the fact is when I crash. 

 

Somehow I trust that the (acute*) apocalypse would see me in a window! (*arguably the collapse is already happening, albeit gradually, all around us)

 

Regardless, I feel like we'd be prepared. This is high-stress conditioning/training for the ages. According to pretty much every success story, people get through this hell and know it was the hardest thing they ever did or will ever have to do. Our bodies are regenerating nerves of steel! Bionic survivors unite ❤️

Actually, thinking about it, we’d probably make a fortune (in food and whatever is being bartered for survival) as counsellors for everyone else just starting their meltdown. 😁

[littlebird]

37 minutes ago, Ariel said:

At least the outsides would match the insides, LOL!!

This is so real. I asked a trauma therapist once why I felt the MOST calm, collected, and focused in the moments when everyone around me was fully panicking (police and/or Proud Boys attacking a peaceful protest, for example) and he said that it's probably the one of the few times the world's outsides match my insides.

 

It's come in handy at least: easier to wash tear gas/bear mace/pepper spray out of peoples' eyes when your hands aren't shaking. Who says cPTSD doesn't have any upsides? 😭

Edited August 15 by littlebird

[Jane318]

2 hours ago, Ariel said:

 

Incidentally, I have found that during these years of WD/PAWS, any time there has been an actual big-deal so-called outer-world circumstance that directly impacts me or requires my full psychospiritual embodied attention, like a real life event, I've received the grace of entering a state of clarity and presence. For example, when my cat died; or when a close friend of mine had a family crisis. Mysteriously, when it truly matters, the veil parts, the smoke clears, and I'm able to show up. After the fact is when I crash....

I notice this too - somehow we can pull it together in a crisis, but once the acute crisis passes, the crash almost inevitably comes.  Even before this, I recognized that I could cope and do what needed to be done in a crisis, but that once things calmed down, I would get major depressed.  I finally realized what was going on - the body has to recover at some point.  I've found this is greatly amplified now that I am tapering / in withdrawal.  I had a major meltdown a couple months ago following such an event, tearing into a close friend, which is SOOO unlike me.  Even a busy day will throw me into a loop for a day or more afterwards.  I've learned that now that I am aware of this, I can prepare for it.  

[theopold]

Hey @Kat66

 

On 8/13/2024 at 11:19 PM, Kat66 said:

I don't know how we bear it sometimes either @Dahlia50. It really is UNBEARABLE sometimes, and the unbearable-ness goes on for weeks at a time, sometimes months. People ask me how I am and I don't know how to answer them. I think they think 'oh she's a bit depressed or anxious because of the drugs' or something, but that doesn't even come close. Your world turns into a grinding recurring horrorshow where you feel you are silently screaming and banging your fists against a glass wall staring out into the 'normal' world. A world from which you feel totally disconnected. You feel unheard and unacknowledged. You feel like this will go on forever and nothing you do can alter the way you feel. Your personality, what's left of it, your 'self' becomes worn down and mutates into something you don't recognise anymore. You become a meaningless, worthless blob. You just somehow get through each day and for what? Another one exactly the same the day after? You pray for these precious 'windows' which occasionally come along if you're lucky but vanish just as quickly. Windows are so cruel. And even when you're completely off the drug there's no guarantee things return to normal any time soon. I'm still tapering and will be doing for the foreseeable. 

 

I apologise for the complete lack of positivity in the above rant but it felt good to write down what this feels like in it's truthful state.

 

 

 

Yeah...this!!  Rant or no, lol, you are dead on here...sometimes it really IS just completely unbearable.  Lonely, frightening, horrible, soul-crushing, etc, etc, etc.  But, for some strange reason your "lack of positivity" in this post actually gives me hope?  Maybe it's just because it somehow reminds me that amidst all this suffering...we are not really alone.  We are here, together.  We continue to fight.  We will not give up, or give in.  We WILL get through this.  And in the end, when we all get there together - and we will - then will our beauty shine...  

[Kat66]

Thanks you for those validating words @theopold. I know we're not supposed to focus on the horribleness of this and be positive all the time, but sometimes hearing another person rant about how soul sucking this is can help. I think the key is not to overdo it and keep an eye on a tendency towards TOO much negativity, otherwise you can mutate into such an angry rage state that is even harder to drag yourself out of. I'm guilty of this and can end up wallowing in the despair way too much.

[theopold]

Hello @Kat66

 

On 8/17/2024 at 12:05 AM, Kat66 said:

I think the key is not to overdo it and keep an eye on a tendency towards TOO much negativity, otherwise you can mutate into such an angry rage state that is even harder to drag yourself out of. I'm guilty of this and can end up wallowing in the despair way too much.

 

Yes, agreed.  I woke up the other day and fell into just such an angry rage, unfortunately.  In one sense, such a state of mind feels like maybe it's an emotionally necessary release, and therefore maybe not a bad thing?  OTOH, in my case at least, the burst of anger eventually subsides into feelings of depression, or sadness.  And too, these bursts of anger also often leave me feeling like maybe I'm "losing it" a little bit, which is obviously a pretty scary feeling.  And yes, as well, to the wallowing in despair part - a state of mind that gets more and more difficult to moderate the longer this goes on...  

[Jane318]

On 8/14/2024 at 10:33 AM, Kat66 said:

@Jane318 thanks for the additional B vit and diet info. While I won't be partaking in grass fed beef anytime soon I am mindful of the need for good fats and diet sourced vitamins as opposed to supplements. I do occasionally eat eggs and very occasionally a small amount of cheese. An thanks, I'll check out that section on the home page you mentioned.

 

x

More regarding B vitamins - here are some vegetarian / vegan (?) food sources:  bee pollen, nutritional yeast, and stabilized rice bran. 

(For nutrition information, I rely a lot on "The Root Cause Protocol" (therootcauseprotocol.com)).  

 

I hope you are doing better today.

[Ethylan]

On 8/11/2024 at 1:40 AM, Ariel said:

Hi @Kat66

Great topic!

 

You are so totally NOT ALONE in feeling this way ❤️

 

I've been at this a long time and can certainly relate to yearning for a chemical/quick/convenient solution, especially in the worst moments.

It's good that you're talking about it, there's no shame at all. 

The suffering is real, the struggle is real. WD is hell on earth. 

It's only natural we should long for relief!! 

 

The main reason I haven't gone back on any drugs or reinstated is because it just doesn't work. It wouldn't help matters, and it would most likely make things worse. 

 

And, having said that -- I actually DID go back on drugs at one point. At the time I was 3 years into escitalopram PAWS and didn't know it. I was in a truly wicked wave and had no context for it whatsoever. In this moment of crisis and profound vulnerability, I turned to my GP for support -- it hadn't occurred to me to go back on drugs, but that's what the GP repeatedly pushed for. Out of sheer desperation and lack of any better ideas, thus influenced by my GP (and the culture at large, incl. a close friend who insisted I should take the same meds she was on), I reverted back to deeply engrained psychiatric-brainwashed-thinking of, "I guess I can't live without drugs, guess I need them forever," and, "No big deal, it's just medication," chemical imbalance bunk, etc. And so I started taking vortioxetine.

 

Well guess what? The crisis (what I now know was a wave and withdrawal symptoms) cleared up overnight and I felt perfectly fine the next day -- if by fine you mean feeling like a brain in a jar, for all intents and purposes pretty much dead inside. Because that's how I felt, and I realized: OMG, this feeling I have now, this perfectly content, weird nothing/empty satisfied apathetic indifferent not-caring no-pain feeling like a brain in a jar -- that was my normal for 20+ years!! And I had never really felt it before because I was so used to it, it was my default for so long, I didn't know any other way to feel/be. But suddenly, because I'd been off escitalopram for so long before that, suddenly I had a clear point of contrast. And in that contrast I realized how utterly DISGUSTING it felt to be a brain in a jar, cut off from myself, my body, my soul. And I knew I didn't want to live that way and couldn't go back to that. I also found it highly suspicious that all my discomfort (remember, at the time I had no idea about WD) had vanished overnight. So I started searching online for how to stop vortioxetine, whether I could just stop from one day to the next or whether I needed to taper. And voilà, that's how I found SA and learned about WD for the very first time and realized I'd actually been in protracted withdrawal for YEARS prior -- and all at once I realized that I'd probably f*cked myself by taking the vortioxetine, most likely adding years of WD suffering (this fear has since been confirmed). 

 

So yeah -- I do understand the fantasy of going back on drugs to feel better / make WD go away. And I've kinda been there, done that -- not really consciously, because I didn't know I was in WD at the time, I didn't yet know how any of this works, but still. And it was a massive mistake, I wish I could do it over again and never take those godforsaken vortioxetine teardrop tablets (their shape is the only apt thing about that atrocious drug). Because I', serving consecutive sentences back-to-back, and that lapse in judgment has added years of debilitating illness to this already arduous slog, and cost years of life. NOT worth it for a second. 

 

I actually really, really hate thinking about that and try not to, however I'm sharing my story to illustrate:

a) you are NOT alone, not by a long shot

b) (in my case) going back on drugs is NOT worth it, it doesn't fix anything or make anything better

c) should you ever decide to return to higher doses and resume regular drug use, I would never judge you; I only ever wish you the best ❤️

 

These days when I'm suffering intensely and I get those thoughts about taking drugs again, I remind myself: it's a crapshoot. There's no certainty the drug will work, and I might very well kindle on them and f*ck myself up for even longer, again, except this time it will be way worse than with the vortioxetine, because with the vortioxetine I truly did not know better, and now I do know better. My eyes are wide f*cking open. And even if I did hazard the gamble, and even if it did "work" and I felt better, I'd be living in the dark, ominous, looming shadow of knowing about poop-out and long-term harm and inevitably having to someday once again get off the drug.

 

Not to mention global supply issues, which are only ever going to get worse and worse, and which present a real threat to future drug users not being able to source a steady, safe supply, leading to situations where people might be forced to CT or rapid taper. As much as I hate WD, as much as it has literally ruined my life as I knew it and disabled me, etc. -- I cherish the freedom of knowing that I am drug-free and not dependent on doctors, prescriptions, pharmaceutical manufacturers, factories, global supply chain, etc. Climate change, war, geopolitical instability all make it highly relevant to be drug-free and self-sustaining, however, wherever possible. I don't grow my own food, and I'm very much not self-sufficient, on the contrary; but at least I'm free of these stupid drugs and no longer fund the psychopharmacological industrial complex. 

 

I mean, whatever. We each have to find our own "why", identify or invent our own reasons and motivation for coming off the drugs and staying off -- IF that is indeed what we want for ourselves. No pressure at all to get off drugs, if you ask me. Had I known what I was getting into when I came off of escitalopram back in 2018 (!!!), I would certainly had thought long and hard about whether that was the right call, and whether that was the right time. I don't know what choice I would have made given the information and experience I have today. Same goes for starting the drugs in the first place, of course. Who among us gave informed consent to getting on this so-called medication??! Not me, that's for sure. 

 

For me, I know that when i have thoughts of returning to the drug, it's not because I want to return to the drug -- that thought is simply code for: Please grant me relief from this suffering. 

Remembering that is key and helps me stay the course. That, and cultivating curiosity about what it'll be like once I've healed enough to feel well. I've had a few pretty unbelievable windows where I've felt mind-blowingly good, like better than I ever have in my life probably, or since I was a small child. And I'm genuinely curious whether that could possibly be what awaits me on the other side of this bullsh*t nightmare. I also remind myself that I don't know when recovery will occur, and it might be closer than I think. Currently at 6+ years in, I hope I'm well on my way and past the halfway mark. And it would suck so bad to give up when good things could be just around the corner. Of course, I have no way of knowing that one way or another -- except someday in the future looking back and thanking my past self for holding steady and not caving.

 

It's like when you've put in time in that one queue at the supermarket, and then another one opens up, and you're like, should I change over? And then maybe you do, but as you're walking over to the other cashier, a few people squeeze in elongating that line, whilst simultaneously your original line somehow speeds up!? And by the time you're in your new position in the other queue, you look over and see that if you'd stayed in your original queue it would have been your turn by now, haha

Except -- maybe not, because if you'd stayed put where you were, none of the other shifts may have happened, and everything would be status quo. My point is, there's no way to know. There's no control group in the experiment that is the one unique you with the your one unique life. We just have to make the best decisions we can in the moment, with whatever information and resources are available to us at any given time; practicing present action from a place of love and acceptance and self-compassion, paying it forward to our future selves, with forgiveness and love and kindness for our past selves. 

 

You know?

 

Love to you, Kat. We're in this together ❤️

Ariel

 

Thank you for this response Ariel - not only was it extremely articulate, but it's served some significant comfort to me (~10 months 0mg sertraline on an ill-advised rapid taper...)

 

The analogy about the supermarket lines is so appropriate, and I LOVE the framing of the desire to go back on the drugs as the desire to be free from suffering. 

 

Something I'm really struggling with is justifying my decision to go off these drugs when realistically my life seemed 'good' compared to the hellish PAWS symptoms I've been experiencing since about June. It seems I didn't really have a 'why' for getting off the drugs except I felt that ~6 years seemed like too long, but I also didn't have a 'why' for getting on them beyond 'I am in pain'.