MissSerene: Looking Forward to Help

[MissSerene]

Wantrelief: Thanks so much for replying...I appreciate it. Some days better than others...today is much better than yesterday. I think I'll hold here for a while...this is a long road, isn't it? Looking forward to a healthier 2015.

[Rhiannon]

I think sometimes we just need a longer hold so our bodybrains can take care of some deeper healing that they can't get to while we're continually tapering. I know that's how it goes for me, anyway. Periodically I will take a nice long hold (that's about three months, for me) and I always come out of it feeling so much better. I think it's good just to remember that I can feel that good!

 

Hopefully if you hold for a bit now, the same will happen for you.

[MissSerene]

Rhi: This is good idea...I'm going to try it. I forget this option sometimes, as I'm so eager to get off this med. But as it said on another taperer's blog yesterday, the goal is the leave the med behind while retaining quality of life...not to dash to the finish line.

 

Trying to remember if, last time I did a long hold, I felt signficantly better. May not have, as I'm perimenopausal and not taking hormone replacement, and I think the fluctuations are significantly affecting my mood.

 

Some days, I feel afraid of being in my 50s and fear that this will never go away...that I've blown it and life is downhill from here. I don't want to think like this....trying to be positive. Just going through a rough patch. And for me -- as I suspect for lots of folks here -- trying to get off an SSRI leads to lots of thinking about why I got on it in the first place. For me, this brings sadness, uncertainty, lack of self confidence, and realization that I need a whole new set of skills to deal with my emotions and life challenges.

 

Am trying to look at this as having fulfilling work to do in my middle and mature years, instead of dreading it. Being here helps so much. Thanks, Rhi. It's great to have support in the tough patches. Admitting I'm having a tough patch at all is new for me!!   

[MissSerene]

Haven't been here for a while and wanted to say hi. Am struggling with anhedonia and SO much anger/irritation. Reading stories of others here, I've felt fortunate that I was tapering from one drug, not two or three; that it is fluoxetine, which has a long half-life, etc. But I have taken drug for so long, and progress is slow, and I feel like a shell of my former self. I don't look forward to or really enjoy anything...it's like I'm smiling and nodding and "watching" my life's events. Some days, I feel bitter, and other days, just try to keep taking care of myself and having hope that a richer, brighter internal landscape will return.

 

Every little thing gets on my last nerve, and this is hard on the self-esteem, isn't it? The self- and other-critical part of me is totally off the charts now. I can't seem to eat enough salmon or take enough Omega 3s to counter this   

[Petunia]

Thank you for updating MissSerine,

 

How long have you been feeling increased anger and anhedonia? Did these symptoms begin when you started tapering again?

 

Having hormonal changes at the same time as withdrawal symptoms can be difficult, I've been going through menopause and withdrawal at the same time.

 

I'm sure that as you continue to slowly taper lower, you will keep improving. Symptoms seem to come in windows and waves even when people are tapering slowly and having to become readjusted to the full impact of emotions again, is something everyone has to do after having them muted by the drug for so long.

 

If you feel the symptoms are too much to handle, you may need to slow your taper further.  If I could go back in time and taper properly, I wouldn't care how slow I had to taper if it meant avoiding prolonged withdrawal.

 

You may find this topic helpful

 

Coping with with irritability, anger and rage - Symptoms and ...

[MissSerene]

Petunia: Thanks so much for your reply. It's good to know someone else here is going through the menopause transition, too...it's not easy, is it?

 

Increased anger and anhedonia for more than a year now. I'm not able to trace this to any particular time in my taper. But I was on the fluoxetine for nearly 20 years, so I guess it's not surprising that these things are coming up. Even food doesn't taste that good now.

 

Re: even slower taper, I've been on same dose for six months, and just made a 3-percent cut a few days ago. Will see how it goes. I appreciate the link to the handling anger and irritation topic; I didn't know this w/d symptom was so common. Again, it helps to be in good company.

 

Thanks again, Petunia.

[Petunia]

 Even food doesn't taste that good now.

 

 

I've had this too for quite a while and it makes eating such a chore and hardly worth the effort at times. But over the last few months I've noticed that enjoyment of food is starting to come back, so its good to know that this doesn't last for ever.

[MissSerene]

Quick note, Petunia: Last night I made a new dish for my hubby and me...Crispy pan-fried tilapia with snow peas, bell pepper, and a sweet-and-sour glaze. It tasted GREAT!

[MissSerene]

Hi, all. Back again after long hiatus. Was diagnosed with breast cancer last year and have been dealing with that. Am almost through treatments, which feels good. It's been scary and stressful.

 

Have managed to keep cutting my Prozac dose tiny amount by tiny amount. Even though my starting dose was moderate, and have tapered VERY slowly, am still experiencing w/d symptoms on and off. Now they are ON, and it's unsettling. It's been a while since I really felt the impact of it, but now, for some reason, I'm sad, having crying spells, am anxious, and am noticing very frequent body temp changes and chills.

 

I remember reading here, and elsewhere, a long time ago, that cuts at tail end of a taper can cause very troublesome symptoms. Even with liquid and syringe, it can be hard to trim tiny amounts. Maybe have gone too fast in last few months.

 

While dealing with breast cancer, I haven't been focusing much on SSRI taper. But current mood and physical symptoms seem more than just the stress of recent events. Will try to stick in there!

[MissSerene]

Hi, all. Since Aug. 17 – when I had first-ever “paroxysmal afib” episode (I am 54, otherwise healthy, and echocardiogram showed structurally sound heart) – I’ve been having physical anxiety symptoms, including on-and-off palpitations. Cardiologist afib may continue and may not. I was on a blood thinner for several weeks, then switched to low-dose aspirin; they had me on a beta blocker but said I could stop taking it daily…just use it if another episode happened, and that if numerous episodes started happening, I could take a “pill in the pocket” approach with a rhythm-control drug.

 

Am still having palpitations. Not until today did it occur to me that these and the afib could be related to withdrawal, then I stumbled on the related thread here. I also read that rhythm problems in otherwise heart-healthy people can be due to taurine and arginine deficiency.

 

Would like to try these nutrients – and maybe magnesium – but don’t know which one of the three or how much to take daily. Does anyone know? Alto, have the palpitation problems you mentioned here in 2013 resolved? Is there reason to think this will pass when w/d is over?

 

This feels so uncomfortable and scary, still being in w/d and after finishing breast cancer treatment in February. After BC, I am on anastrozole, an aromatase inhibitor that takes your estrogen down to almost nothing (to help prevent recurrence). It’s tough here to try to isolate variables and discern what is causing the high anxiety now -- seemingly out of the blue -- and heart rhythm problems and what to do. As always, insight appreciated.

[ChessieCat]

Hi MissSerene,

 

I moved your new topic question to your Intro/Update topic because it is about your own situation and will keep your history together.

[MissSerene]

Thanks, Chessie. Have been finding and reading heart/rhythm threads and trying to locate specifics re: safe magnesium glycinate and taurine dosages, to start.

[MissSerene]

I've had fleeting thoughts that a psychotic break might be a relief - this fence-sitting hurts NO offense meant to anyone - the comment about being crazy and having fun prompted this comment -

Barb: Replying to a years-old post, but I had to laugh (not at true psychotic breaks, of course) when I saw reference to what I think of as a complete "meltdown"...Sometimes I wish I could just dissolve into a puddle, admit that I can't cope, and get it over with, and have someone (my husband or dog LOL) bring my meals on a tray, and I get out of bed only to go to the bathroom. I fantasize about this. As you said, this fence-sitting really hurts.

[ChessieCat]

With anything it is suggested that you start with a low dose and only add one thing at a time.

 

To search the site use a search engine like google and type in survivingantidepressants.org + topic.

[MissSerene]

Hi, all. I'm back after a years-long absence (hope I am posting in right place).

 

The day after my last post, I "went around the bend," as I call it, and into several-month "cuckoo period," after having a terrible reaction to the anastrozole I was given with breast-cancer treatment. These estrogen-suppressing drugs can cause, for some women, severe mood disturbances, and they did for me. I was depressed, very anxious, lost my appetite (and 30-40 pounds, and I wasn't heavy to begin with).

 

Long and short, I was so desperate to feel better and be functional again than I accepted the anti-depressants and klonipin my doctor suggested. So, after having completed a long, total klonipin taper in 2011, I am back again. Have been tapering now for quite a while, and down to a very small dose (.25 milligram/day). I know this sounds like a tiny amount, but have been taking this drug since early 1990s and am very sensitive to it. Am depressed, apathetic, having flu-like symptoms, stomach bloating, all the same stuff as before. Am feeling particularly discouraged today, as so many around me -- in my family, at work -- seem to be in a good place right now, and I just feel like crap. Trying to take better care of myself; it's hard. 

 

Thanks for everything you do here. I appreciate it so much. Good to be back. 

 

 

[MissSerene]

Hi, all. It's been almost a year since here.

 

Am nine or 10 months into a looong hold in clonazepam taper; I kind of accidentally made a cut of about 33 percent, didn't want to updose, and have been dealing with the consequences since.

 

On-and-off flu-like symptoms (mostly on) like nausea, temperature changes and fatigue; cotton-headedness; changes in balance, at times; constant "benzo belly," with weepiness/anxiety immediately after eating; on-and-off general weepiness; anger and irritability; apathy and listlessness; anhedonia; tinnitus; poor concentration and focus; short-term memory problems. It's way too easy to withdraw socially and just stop seeing people -- either going out or inviting others over. (I do have a loving husband and an in-town extended family.) It's really hard to have compassion for myself, and love myself, when I'm angry or weepy most of the time. 

 

I'm familiar with the windows and waves pattern and definitely feeling it; had about three weeks of feeling noticeably better -- a couple of months ago -- and now back in rough patch with all of the above w/d symptoms. 

 

Wow, does this seem like a long road. Decided I'd better check in, as feeling pretty discouraged. Though remaining dose sounds very small, I've been on the drug for almost 30 years, and this is my second taper. I'm not young and not old...But old enough. Have days where I take care of myself okay (enough food, water, sleep, exercise, personal hygiene), and other days when I can't seem to scrape up the energy (it seems like an effort to shower and brush teeth). Need to get a handle on this. I work part-time and am doing okay with that.

 

Have read about the gut/brain axis and, having done that, am not surprised about benzo belly and feeling anxious after eating. 

 

Thanks for the ear. Good to be back.  

[Onmyway]

Welcome back @MissSerene, I am sorry you are in a wave again The good thing is that you know what windows feel like and have those to look forward to more and more as you hold longer! I moved your new intro post to your original intro (we only get one) so that people who were following you can keep track of you and respond if they are still around. 

 

I just noticed that you were diagnosed with Paroxysmal Afib. Are you getting treatment for it? Has it improved? 

I am currently being investigated for it - had the Holter monitoring and also wondered if it was withdrawal as I have no risk factors. 

 

Hope you find some respite soon, 

OMW

[MissSerene]

@Onmyway, Thanks so much for responding. I have now had paroxysmal afib since 2016 and average about one (known) incident of this or tachycardia every year and a half to two years. The monitor my cardiologist sent me home with years ago showed nothing. But I've landed in ER with each episode. Am now taking a beta-blocker and a blood thinner (I was otherwise healthy when this started). Have no idea whether this started as a result of withdrawal. But doctors tell me that better stress management, relaxation, adequate sleep, regular exercise, and a healthy diet will help with the afib. Will you let me know how your tests turn out? Hope everything goes smoothly. 

[MissSerene]

Hoping someone will see this...Boy do I need some good insight. I'm now down to .25 mg clonazepam after an accidental 33-percent cut more than a year ago. I decided to tough it out...Bad w/d symptoms ensued, and as a result I've been on hold since. Yesterday on a benzo forum, I was told to never hold more than four weeks due to "tolerance withdrawal." I'd never before heard that a long hold could have any negative consequences.

 

As many of the comments in this thread express, I'm bewildered: Have been assuming I should wait until my nervous system calms down significantly before making the next cut. I'd been doing better for a couple of months, and then out of the blue, about a week ago, very noticeable w/d symptoms have re-emerged. Is this not surprising after such a large cut a year ago? Or could this be the elusive/hazy "tolerance w/d?" Think if might just be natural ups-and-downs of w/d after having been on clonazepam (including one other almost-complete taper) since the mid-1990s.

 

Any and all insight appreciated re: "tolerance w/d" concept and plan not to do another cut until I've been stable for a good period. Thank you! 

 

 

[Shep]

@MissSerene Please note I moved your last post off the "Benzo tolerance" thread and placed it here in your intro because it's about your own taper. This keeps all of your taper questions and answers in one place.

 

You have other drugs listed in your signature - are you still taking duloxetine and lamotrigine, along with clonazepam? You mentioned tapering Prozac when you first came to the forum in 2013, but that drug isn't listed in your signature. Please update your signature so we know where you're at. Please include dates for drug changes. This will help us guide you through your taper, as when you made drug changes is important. Please see:

 

How to Summarize Your Drug History in Your Signature

 

If you're still dealing with other drugs, I wouldn't get your tapering information from the benzo forums. They tend to look at benzos as bad and other drugs as inconsequential, but from what we've learned about polypharmacy, a lot of what gets termed "benzo tolerance" may in fact be the result of pulling a benzo out of a cocktail of other drugs and new side effects that were once masked by the benzo coming through. Or it may be the wave activity from prior drug withdrawals coming through. It may be helpful to read the first post in this thread. 

 

Taking multiple psych drugs? Which drug to taper first?

 

 

[WeLiveInHope]

I am sorry you are going through this and I hope it works out for you. I am curious as to what tolerance withdrawal is also! 

[MissSerene]

9 hours ago, Shep said:

@MissSerene Please note I moved your last post off the "Benzo tolerance" thread and placed it here in your intro because it's about your own taper. This keeps all of your taper questions and answers in one place.

 

You have other drugs listed in your signature - are you still taking duloxetine and lamotrigine, along with clonazepam? You mentioned tapering Prozac when you first came to the forum in 2013, but that drug isn't listed in your signature. Please update your signature so we know where you're at. Please include dates for drug changes. This will help us guide you through your taper, as when you made drug changes is important. Please see:

 

How to Summarize Your Drug History in Your Signature

 

If you're still dealing with other drugs, I wouldn't get your tapering information from the benzo forums. They tend to look at benzos as bad and other drugs as inconsequential, but from what we've learned about polypharmacy, a lot of what gets termed "benzo tolerance" may in fact be the result of pulling a benzo out of a cocktail of other drugs and new side effects that were once masked by the benzo coming through. Or it may be the wave activity from prior drug withdrawals coming through. It may be helpful to read the first post in this thread. 

 

Taking multiple psych drugs? Which drug to taper first?

 

 

Thank you, Shep! I edited my signature. So appreciate all your great suggestions. Your comment about polypharmacy interesting...it hadn't occurred to me that whole benzo w/d experience is affected by the mix of drugs one is taking, and any quick changes in those other drugs. This tells me my brain and nervous system are a little slow and confused right now!

[Shep]

@MissSerene Please add dates to your signature.

 

We need something that looks like this example:

 

On 7/19/2011 at 11:31 AM, Altostrata said:

Example:

2001–2002 paroxetine 
2003  citalopram 
2004  paroxetine
2008  paroxetine slow taper down to 2016 Aug off paroxetine
2016  citalopram May 20mg  Oct slow taper down
2018  citalopram 13 Feb 4.6mg 15 Mar 4.4mg 29 Apr 4.2mg

 

 

The reason this is important is because you have "At doc's direction, recently lowered duloxetine within two weeks from 90 mg- to 70 mg- to 60 mg/day."

 

But you've been here since 2013, so I don't know if that's a recent reduction or something that happened since you joined the forum. The signature is extremely important so the staff can easily see your changes. We have a very small staff and a lot of new members, so keeping the signature tidy and up to date prevents taper advice errors. 

 

Please also add in any non-psychiatric meds you are taking, as well as any supplements (some supplements can be problematic during a taper). 

 

How to Summarize Your Drug History in Your Signature

 

14 hours ago, MissSerene said:

Your comment about polypharmacy interesting...it hadn't occurred to me that whole benzo w/d experience is affected by the mix of drugs one is taking, and any quick changes in those other drugs.

 

Yes, you are spot on - all of these drugs matter. You may find this article interesting regarding the benzo/AD combo:

 

The Guardian - They Said It Was Safe - Prozac trials and akathisia, an article from 1999

 

As you'll read in that thread, the antidepressant drug studies involved placing people on benzos to control anxiety and akathisia caused by the antidepressant in order to get them through the drug trial. It's been known for decades that antidepressant can cause anxiety, insomnia, and akathisia; however, because the drug trials were rigged this way, many doctors don't understand the danger and often will pull people off a benzo while they're still on an antidepressant. Many times they will blame the patient's "mental illness" (i.e. an anxiety disorder, etc.) as the reason for upticks in symptoms and not the fact that the benzo was dampening down the antidepressant's side effects. 

 

This is why we recommend coming off the benzo last. 

 

You have a really good chance of getting off these drugs, but let's set up a game plan to do so in the safest way possible. Once your signature is in order, we can set up that game plan. 

[MissSerene]

On 10/8/2023 at 7:13 AM, Shep said:

@MissSerene Please add dates to your signature.

 

We need something that looks like this example:

 

 

The reason this is important is because you have "At doc's direction, recently lowered duloxetine within two weeks from 90 mg- to 70 mg- to 60 mg/day."

 

But you've been here since 2013, so I don't know if that's a recent reduction or something that happened since you joined the forum. The signature is extremely important so the staff can easily see your changes. We have a very small staff and a lot of new members, so keeping the signature tidy and up to date prevents taper advice errors. 

 

Please also add in any non-psychiatric meds you are taking, as well as any supplements (some supplements can be problematic during a taper). 

 

How to Summarize Your Drug History in Your Signature

 

 

Yes, you are spot on - all of these drugs matter. You may find this article interesting regarding the benzo/AD combo:

 

The Guardian - They Said It Was Safe - Prozac trials and akathisia, an article from 1999

 

As you'll read in that thread, the antidepressant drug studies involved placing people on benzos to control anxiety and akathisia caused by the antidepressant in order to get them through the drug trial. It's been known for decades that antidepressant can cause anxiety, insomnia, and akathisia; however, because the drug trials were rigged this way, many doctors don't understand the danger and often will pull people off a benzo while they're still on an antidepressant. Many times they will blame the patient's "mental illness" (i.e. an anxiety disorder, etc.) as the reason for upticks in symptoms and not the fact that the benzo was dampening down the antidepressant's side effects. 

 

This is why we recommend coming off the benzo last. 

 

You have a really good chance of getting off these drugs, but let's set up a game plan to do so in the safest way possible. Once your signature is in order, we can set up that game plan. 

Shep, thank you so much. It may be my brain fog, but I have added dates, other drugs, etc., kept my sig to under 12 lines, and am still getting message that sig doesn't meet guidelines. Not sure what about the sig is wrong. 

[MissSerene]

3 minutes ago, MissSerene said:

Shep, thank you so much. It may be my brain fog, but I have added dates, other drugs, etc., kept my sig to under 12 lines, and am still getting message that sig doesn't meet guidelines. Not sure what about the sig is wrong. 

The message says my sig spans too many lines or that it doesn't meet guidelines. Am I formatting incorrectly? 

[Shep]

19 hours ago, MissSerene said:

The message says my sig spans too many lines or that it doesn't meet guidelines. Am I formatting incorrectly? 

 

I would keep it as simple as possible. We don't need a narrative or a lot of words explaining symptoms or why you made the changes. Just a simple list of dates, drugs, and doses. 

 

Any drugs prior to 24 months ago can just be listed with start and stop years. 

 

So for mid-90s to 2021, you could list:

 

mid-90s - 2021 - clonzepam and various antidepressants and lamotrigine

 

And then for the most recent years (2022 - 2023) list the drugs and doses and any changes you made by the month. For example:

 

     Example:

     2022  citalopram May 20mg  Oct 15 mg
     2023  citalopram 13 Feb 4.6mg 15 Mar 4.4mg 29 Apr 4.2mg

 

If you're not able to get it into your signature, please post it in a regular post here in your intro/update thread and I'll add it to your signature when I'm next online. 

 

 

 

 

[MissSerene]

1 hour ago, Shep said:

 

I would keep it as simple as possible. We don't need a narrative or a lot of words explaining symptoms or why you made the changes. Just a simple list of dates, drugs, and doses. 

 

Any drugs prior to 24 months ago can just be listed with start and stop years. 

 

So for mid-90s to 2021, you could list:

 

mid-90s - 2021 - clonzepam and various antidepressants and lamotrigine

 

And then for the most recent years (2022 - 2023) list the drugs and doses and any changes you made by the month. For example:

 

     Example:

     2022  citalopram May 20mg  Oct 15 mg
     2023  citalopram 13 Feb 4.6mg 15 Mar 4.4mg 29 Apr 4.2mg

 

If you're not able to get it into your signature, please post it in a regular post here in your intro/update thread and I'll add it to your signature when I'm next online. 

 

 

 

 

Thank you, Shep. Running to work...Will try again in a few hours...I think it's already in the form you cite but will trim further. Sorry for all the back and forth on something so basic -- appreciate your help.

[MissSerene]

6 hours ago, MissSerene said:

Thank you, Shep. Running to work...Will try again in a few hours...I think it's already in the form you cite but will trim further. Sorry for all the back and forth on something so basic -- appreciate your help.

Hi, Shep. Was able to change signature and think it looks like what we need now. 

 

You mentioned doing benzo taper last, among several drugs. I haven't been following this issue closely in quite a while and didn't know about what's been discovered with polypharmacy. All along, have been thinking only about tapering the benzo and not ADs, but I see that this is probably good thing to consider. The idea of tapering off of ADs scares me deeply, as I've had a number of family members that needed them/have been on them for decades...this fear that I need them, too, has kept me frozen for a very long time. In my family, we've had personality disorders as well as anxiety and depression, and lots of trauma, and I feel underconfident about learning to manage my emotions and take proper care of myself. I originally came to this forum to deal with benzo problem. Now, I'm open to considering a slow taper of my ADs. 

[Shep]

Quote

*Now taking lamotrigine, duloxetine, Klonopin, metoprolol 50 mg/day, Eliquis 5 mg/day, levothyroxine 75 mcg/day

 

Thanks, @MissSerene. Just two more requests - please add in the date instead of using "now." It looks like you've been on the same amounts of these drugs since June 2023. If so, please swap out "now" for "June 2023 - present." 

 

The second request is to add the doses to lamotrigine, duloxetine, and Klonopin that you're currently taking. 

 

As you update your signature going forward, you'll want to list the month, day, and year for each reduction as you taper. This will allow us to follow your progress and answer questions along the way. 

 

13 hours ago, MissSerene said:

The idea of tapering off of ADs scares me deeply, as I've had a number of family members that needed them/have been on them for decades...this fear that I need them, too, has kept me frozen for a very long time

 

Before the antidepressants came along, people generally recovered from a bout of depression within a few months or so and then went on with their lives. It's likely the drugs have turned a temporary problem into a life-long event for those who suffer from what they think is depression but is really damage caused by the drugs. Please see:

 

Now Antidepressant-Induced Chronic Depression Has a Name: Tardive Dysphoria

 

You may want to read Robert Whitaker's book Anatomy of an Epidemic. Whitaker's work comes highly recommended here. He also runs the website Mad in America. 

 

Here's a short book trailer / summary:

 

Anatomy of an Epidemic - Robert Whitaker - VIDEO

 

Also, there's this brilliant documentary called Medicating Normal, which you may be able to google to find ways to stream it. They also have a YouTube channel with a number of videos you may find helpful - Medicating Normal YouTube Channel

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Shep
fixed typos

[MissSerene]

3 hours ago, Shep said:

 

Thanks, @MissSerene. Just two more requests - please add in the date instead of using "now." It looks like you've been on the same amounts of these drugs since June 2023. If so, please swap out "now" for "June 2023 - present." 

 

The second request is to add the doses to lamotrigine, duloxetine, and Klonopin that you're currently taking. 

 

As you update your signature going forward, you'll want to list the month, day, and year for each reduction as you taper. This will allow us to follow your progress and answer questions along the way. 

 

 

Before the antidepressants came along, people generally recovered from a bout of depression within a few months or so and then went on with their lives. It's likely the drugs have turned a temporary problem into a life-long event for those who suffer from what they think is depression but is really damage caused by the drugs. Please see:

 

Now Antidepressant-Induced Chronic Depression Has a Name: Tardive Dysphoria

 

You may want to read Robert Whitaker's book Anatomy of an Epidemic. Whitaker's work comes highly recommended here. He also runs the website Mad in America. 

 

Here's a short book trailer / summary:

 

Anatomy of an Epidemic - Robert Whitaker - VIDEO

 

Also, there's this brilliant documentary called Medicating Normal, which you may be able to google to find ways to stream it. They also have a YouTube channel with a number of videos you may find helpful - Medicating Normal YouTube Channel

 

Shep, You're the best -- thank you. Changes made. I'll look at these resources you suggested. So appreciate your good counsel.