The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

[Celeste1990]

19 minutes ago, BaccatePlayer said:

Completely normal. Any symptom is a sign your system is trying to fix something. Acute phase is typically worst between second and sixth month, but you can't hurry your body. If you need reassurance, always remember symptoms are validated here because of reports. Even if you had a symptom, pattern of waves, specific observation that no one ever had, what would you do? Still trust that it's CNS instability. Maybe what you report now will bring relief to someone in the future who will notice same thing. Healing takes no breaks.

Thank you! I hope one day I can post that I’ve gotten better and someone who’s struggling with similar symptoms or patterns can find comfort in that. I hope you’re doing ok, @BaccatePlayer ❤️

[mariamisery]

@Celeste1990I am experiencing the same. Feeling off emotionally or so fatiqued. It is a trade off. When one comes the other one is not present. When one leaves I think that the other is gone. I now expect either and  determine healing on if either one is getting better when it shows up. Thanks @BaccatePlayer. So you believe it is the CNS. I guess CNS will heal when it heals.  

[Celeste1990]

2 minutes ago, mariamisery said:

@Celeste1990I am experiencing the same. Feeling off emotionally or so fatiqued. It is a trade off. When one comes the other one is not present. When one leaves I think that the other is gone. I now expect either and  determine healing on if either one is getting better when it shows up. Thanks @BaccatePlayer. So you believe it is the CNS. I guess CNS will heal when it heals.  

I’m sorry you’re dealing with the same thing. But it is comforting to hear this is typical. I hope you see some relief soon 

[missy27]

29 minutes ago, Celeste1990 said:

Thank you! I hope one day I can post that I’ve gotten better and someone who’s struggling with similar symptoms or patterns can find comfort in that. I hope you’re doing ok, @BaccatePlayer ❤️

I am dealing with the same thing as well. It can feel so relentless, so I totally understand the feeling. Like said before it is a sign of healing. Hang in there, sending prayers

[BaccatePlayer]

33 minutes ago, mariamisery said:

@Celeste1990I am experiencing the same. Feeling off emotionally or so fatiqued. It is a trade off. When one comes the other one is not present. When one leaves I think that the other is gone. I now expect either and  determine healing on if either one is getting better when it shows up. Thanks @BaccatePlayer. So you believe it is the CNS. I guess CNS will heal when it heals.  

General consensus is that Antidepressants Induced Neurological Dysfunction results in sensetized nervous system. Withdrawal is like a song: when you play it loud enough, you can hear guitar, piano, trumpet, and it doesn't matter cause if it's too loud, you know it's that one song. When you mute it completely, you hear nothing because it all had just one source.

[missy27]

Anyone have a wave where your horribly nauseated all the time with a sour stomach? I'm only getting 2 hours of sleep because of it and dropped weight because it's hard to eat. 

[Onmyway]

I was nauseous for 4 months in the beginning but not to the extent you're describing. Might be worth checking it out - you may have some other GI issue instead of this being a wave. Anything change in your health/diet/medicines/circumstances lately? 

[6Eggs]

I know nausea is very common and can be bad for some for months or years in cases I have heard.

Personally nausea has been very rare for me, I had a tiny bit here any there and in the more recent months after almost 3 years of this.

However, I had pretty severe diarrhea starting with my worst waves in March and I still get it on and off randomly with my waves now, but it's not enough to really affect me, but a few months ago I was going to the doctor about it thinking it was something else, but I am sure it's the WD as it always occurs after a wave is resolving, never before, never during, always on the day I start to come out of a wave and it has been like this since March, but is a lot better now. I had some light nausea during those months as well but nothing compared to the other symptom.

[missy27]

11 hours ago, Onmyway said:

I was nauseous for 4 months in the beginning but not to the extent you're describing. Might be worth checking it out - you may have some other GI issue instead of this being a wave. Anything change in your 

I'm having a bad bout of insomnia. I'm getting 2 hours a night. I'm not able to nap because my body can't relax. It's been like this for weeks. I'm actually going in to doctor today. I don't know how much of this I can take. Thank you for responding

[KimMk]

I’m wondering if anyone here has experienced and gotten past plateaus? The waves are less intense now but I’m on day 16 or 17 of a wave and it’s just so confusing because the last window I had, I felt like my baseline was noticeably higher. I just don’t know. There are massive improvements since the spring but it’s so very painful so oscillate between restless and complete numbness. 

[Onmyway]

10 hours ago, missy27 said:

I'm having a bad bout of insomnia. I'm getting 2 hours a night. I'm not able to nap because my body can't relax. It's been like this for weeks. I'm actually going in to doctor today. I don't know how much of this I can take. Thank you for responding

This is a common symptom and I would recommend reading the thread on sleep issues. It is pinned in the Symptoms forum. 

 

magnesium glycinate may be helpful . I like mag citrate better but if you have tummy issues you may not tolerate it well. 

 

Another helpful thing could be having some background noise - white noise or gentle music or an audio book. You want something monotone/calm without much amplitude in sound level - no Beethoven or Metallica 

 

The nausea may be the result of the lack of sleep. 

 

I found ashwagandha and lemon balm teas helpful at some point (not the tablets - just the tea as they are weaker and we want gentle in withdrawal). 

 

Hope you get some respite soon. 

Omw

[Tiffgothartist]

7 hours ago, KimMk said:

I’m wondering if anyone here has experienced and gotten past plateaus? The waves are less intense now but I’m on day 16 or 17 of a wave and it’s just so confusing because the last window I had, I felt like my baseline was noticeably higher. I just don’t know. There are massive improvements since the spring but it’s so very painful so oscillate between restless and complete numbness. 

I'm going to share from my experience, but I do want to say that sometimes progress peaks its head out and then goes away and then comes back and when it comes back it's permanent. It's almost like a little mouse peeking out of a hole, then hiding, then coming out completely. Almost like your neurons are testing out a new connection, lol. 

[6Eggs]

I agree about the hypothesis on how windows are like testing of new connections/functions etc...   I have experienced in the last few months feeling, sensations, thought processes that are intensely nostalgic, not just the feeling of nostalgia itself but actual flashback to times in childhood where I experience for the firs time those same certain novel emotions, sensations, feeling and ways of thinking and sensing the world.  I truly believe that our brains are somewhat of a blank canvas after having it mostly wiped out by meds and going through something similar to childhood development all over again.

One of the many complaints people have about is mood dysregulation, very striking similarity to how children learn and develop emotional control and regulation, and lack that until adulthood when the brain is mostly finished it's wiring, pruning and myleination.

Some of the weird visual perception illusions and distortions I have now are the same I had when I was a very young kid, from age 4 to at least age 8 or 10, and both then and now I was able to induce and control them with deep hyper-focus.

That realization that I had these things as part of my childhood development, especially very young was like an ah ha moment. I think the brain is doing it's normal processes that are seen during development and high neuroplastisity when a person is young and the waves and windows are akin to something like testing/trial and error type of process.

[missy27]

13 hours ago, Onmyway said:

This is a common symptom and I would recommend reading the thread on sleep issues. It is pinned in the Symptoms forum. 

 

magnesium glycinate may be helpful . I like mag citrate better but if you have tummy issues you may not tolerate it well. 

 

Another helpful thing could be having some background noise - white noise or gentle music or an audio book. You want something monotone/calm without much amplitude in sound level - no Beethoven or Metallica 

 

The nausea may be the result of the lack of sleep. 

 

I found ashwagandha and lemon balm teas helpful at some point (not the tablets - just the tea as they are weaker and we want gentle in withdrawal). 

 

Hope you get some respite soon. 

Omw

Thank you for responding. I wish I could take magnesium, my system is still so sensitive to it. I've been thinking of finding a powder form of it and maybe try little bits of it to get my tolerance up? 

 

I will definitely try the teas, thank you. 

[KimMk]

16 hours ago, Tiffgothartist said:

I'm going to share from my experience, but I do want to say that sometimes progress peaks its head out and then goes away and then comes back and when it comes back it's permanent. It's almost like a little mouse peeking out of a hole, then hiding, then coming out completely. Almost like your neurons are testing out a new connection, lol. 

 

13 hours ago, 6Eggs said:

I agree about the hypothesis on how windows are like testing of new connections/functions etc...   I have experienced in the last few months feeling, sensations, thought processes that are intensely nostalgic, not just the feeling of nostalgia itself but actual flashback to times in childhood where I experience for the firs time those same certain novel emotions, sensations, feeling and ways of thinking and sensing the world.  I truly believe that our brains are somewhat of a blank canvas after having it mostly wiped out by meds and going through something similar to childhood development all over again.

One of the many complaints people have about is mood dysregulation, very striking similarity to how children learn and develop emotional control and regulation, and lack that until adulthood when the brain is mostly finished it's wiring, pruning and myleination.

Some of the weird visual perception illusions and distortions I have now are the same I had when I was a very young kid, from age 4 to at least age 8 or 10, and both then and now I was able to induce and control them with deep hyper-focus.

That realization that I had these things as part of my childhood development, especially very young was like an ah ha moment. I think the brain is doing it's normal processes that are seen during development and high neuroplastisity when a person is young and the waves and windows are akin to something like testing/trial and error type of process.

This is so helpful, thank you. The windows and waves were pretty predictable from April-July but August feels different. It’s difficult to explain how. Today I feel a teeny tiny reduction in anhedonia though.

[Ramiro]

Is it normal to get small moments of calmness or hope while on a wave? 
I've been on a nasty wave for 2 weeks, but for some moments I the terrible symptoms reduced, like I feel not bad but not good either. That can last for a couple of hours, and then the symptoms come back. Is that common? 

I got this wave after having a period of one month where I felt actually really good, but now I'm back to pain. I can't even remember how it feels to be in a window, it's so dooming.

 

 

[BaccatePlayer]

23 minutes ago, Ramiro said:

Is it normal to get small moments of calmness or hope while on a wave? 
I've been on a nasty wave for 2 weeks, but for some moments I the terrible symptoms reduced, like I feel not bad but not good either. That can last for a couple of hours, and then the symptoms come back. Is that common? 

I got this wave after having a period of one month where I felt actually really good, but now I'm back to pain. I can't even remember how it feels to be in a window, it's so dooming.

 

 

Of course. During acute phase waves can be 24/7 symptoms, but it eventually improves. You should progressively see wave days having more/longer/stronger breaks from symptoms until eventually there will be no waves.

[jon1]

On 8/28/2024 at 6:27 AM, 6Eggs said:

I agree about the hypothesis on how windows are like testing of new connections/functions etc...   I have experienced in the last few months feeling, sensations, thought processes that are intensely nostalgic, not just the feeling of nostalgia itself but actual flashback to times in childhood where I experience for the firs time those same certain novel emotions, sensations, feeling and ways of thinking and sensing the world.  I truly believe that our brains are somewhat of a blank canvas after having it mostly wiped out by meds and going through something similar to childhood development all over again.

 

I get moments like this too. Sometimes it's like I'm actually experiencing something again. Often I can 'sense' a familiar, pleasant, smell from the past along with a brief flash of memory from when I smelled it.

 

It's completely random too, often coming out of nowhere.

[6Eggs]

14 hours ago, jon1 said:

 

I get moments like this too. Sometimes it's like I'm actually experiencing something again. Often I can 'sense' a familiar, pleasant, smell from the past along with a brief flash of memory from when I smelled it.

 

It's completely random too, often coming out of nowhere.

 It's weird isn't it?   I only started getting these in the last 2 or so months out of a 3 year ordeal with WD and tapering,  and I see it as a good sign things are on the right track.

[jon1]

15 minutes ago, 6Eggs said:

 It's weird isn't it?   I only started getting these in the last 2 or so months out of a 3 year ordeal with WD and tapering,  and I see it as a good sign things are on the right track.

 

Very! Fingers crossed it's a sign that neural pathways are being tested before being put back online.

[6Eggs]

16 hours ago, Ramiro said:

Is it normal to get small moments of calmness or hope while on a wave? 
I've been on a nasty wave for 2 weeks, but for some moments I the terrible symptoms reduced, like I feel not bad but not good either. That can last for a couple of hours, and then the symptoms come back. Is that common? 

I got this wave after having a period of one month where I felt actually really good, but now I'm back to pain. I can't even remember how it feels to be in a window, it's so dooming.

 

 

 

Yes, pretty normal, had this 3 years now and only starting to get more longer windows and waves now.  But my flashes of symptom windows and waves were often and still occasionally are on the order of minutes, some as mere seconds but more like 15-30 min on average with the larger overall pattern over a day maybe.  The waves in the sec range were often rhythmic on cycles of 3-7 sec (yes I timed them and even graphed one once, and the pattern was like two sine waves of a high and low frequency superimposed). I suspect  these are waves of synchronized neuronal activity.

Now I have longer patterns of several days with smaller minutes long bursts scattered in there which are a fraction of the overall extreme ends of bad and good, and more often the 30min to about 1.5 hour medium intensity waves within the overall several day extreme ones.
My shorter duration waves usually creep up in intensity after 2pm, peak at 4-5pm and subside by 9-10pm.

I have had one of the longest decent windows last week and have dropped into a more mild of my waves starting yesterday, but I reckon my window was more than a week and consistently decent and functional with minimal debilitating symptoms.

[Taisiya1985]

Hello everyone,

Can anyone help me? My windows are becoming less frequent instead of more, regardless of medication (see signature).  I have been experiencing internal akathesia since April. I can't sit, lie down or relax. The sense of time is stretching. It's extremely subtle, I don't know what's bothering me but it's hell. The transition to the window is abrupt. It's like a blockage that I suddenly release for no apparent reason. I feel that I can relax and I can even cry (which is not possible for me in the wave) I then also have a normal sense of time again and don't look at my watch every few minutes

Does anyone know the sudden transition into the window (like a switch) and is it known that the windows become less?

I have been in constant agony for three weeks and my thoughts only revolve around S. 

I haven't had a window that long and I'm afraid it will stay like this forever. I can't stand it...

[Farm24]

11 minutes ago, Taisiya1985 said:

Hello everyone,

Can anyone help me? My windows are becoming less frequent instead of more, regardless of medication (see signature).  I have been experiencing internal akathesia since April. I can't sit, lie down or relax. The sense of time is stretching. It's extremely subtle, I don't know what's bothering me but it's hell. The transition to the window is abrupt. It's like a blockage that I suddenly release for no apparent reason. I feel that I can relax and I can even cry (which is not possible for me in the wave) I then also have a normal sense of time again and don't look at my watch every few minutes

Does anyone know the sudden transition into the window (like a switch) and is it known that the windows become less?

I have been in constant agony for three weeks and my thoughts only revolve around S. 

I haven't had a window that long and I'm afraid it will stay like this forever. I can't stand it...

 Could it be the mirtazapine

[paulk23]

I've finally got fully off effexor after a one year taper ,I thought I went very slowly I dropped by roughly 10 mg every 8 weeks, my last drops I dropped by 5 mg every 4 weeks.ive been on lexapro 12 years then effexor for 3 I finished 10 days ago iam currently in bed have been for 3 days i feel completely empty,I have zero energy iam confused agitated i haven't been able to sleep for 7 nights now ,iam very scared is this normal will it pass what the hell is going on . I've had to take off work this week I have a two year old daughter to take care of ,can anyone give any advice please.

[Farm24]

On 9/2/2024 at 3:55 PM, Farm24 said:

 Could it be the mirtazapine

I haven't take that since May of 2023. But I'm sure all those drugs in 2023 have led to my CNS having these issues. 

[Jane318]

8 hours ago, paulk23 said:

I've finally got fully off effexor after a one year taper ,I thought I went very slowly I dropped by roughly 10 mg every 8 weeks, my last drops I dropped by 5 mg every 4 weeks.ive been on lexapro 12 years then effexor for 3 I finished 10 days ago iam currently in bed have been for 3 days i feel completely empty,I have zero energy iam confused agitated i haven't been able to sleep for 7 nights now ,iam very scared is this normal will it pass what the hell is going on . I've had to take off work this week I have a two year old daughter to take care of ,can anyone give any advice please.

Just a note to say that I am so sorry you are struggling right now - I know how you feel.  I am currently tapering off Effexor and was where you are right now a couple months ago.   To me, it seems your taper schedule is quicker than what @brassmonkey and others would advise, I think, and as I and others here have found out the hard way, tapering too quickly can catch up with you eventually.  Many of us really crashed at the end - because the lower you go, the more slowly you have to go due to all the changes that happen at very low doses.  In my case, I needed to updose a bit to give my CNS a chance to stabilize.  You are completely off meds, so I will let moderator(s) speak to whether / how much you should reinstate, please wait for their input.  I will say that I know you WILL get better, though it will take time.  Hang on to that hope - this is temporary. 

[member21]

In my opinion also the taper has been too fast. Some reinstatement with moderator advise should help. Otherwise it may get tough.

[KimMk]

On 9/11/2024 at 11:01 AM, paulk23 said:

I've finally got fully off effexor after a one year taper ,I thought I went very slowly I dropped by roughly 10 mg every 8 weeks, my last drops I dropped by 5 mg every 4 weeks.ive been on lexapro 12 years then effexor for 3 I finished 10 days ago iam currently in bed have been for 3 days i feel completely empty,I have zero energy iam confused agitated i haven't been able to sleep for 7 nights now ,iam very scared is this normal will it pass what the hell is going on . I've had to take off work this week I have a two year old daughter to take care of ,can anyone give any advice please.

 

First of all, what you’re feeling is not permanent. It is withdrawal.
What dose were you on before you stopped??

 

 I’m tapering effexor and you really need to throw away the calendar and do a slowwww hyperbolic taper. Have you read up on hyperbolic tapering??

 

I’ve successfully reinstated effexor twice after coming fully off. The sooner the reinstatement the better the chance of not having an adverse reaction.

[paulk23]

I was on 6 mg my last drops I had been at 6 mg for 6 weeks , feeling a bit better today my first day out of bed still had lots of anxiety and strange sensations in the brain ,my stomach is very bad but iam gonna try hang on in I really don't want to put them in my mouth again they have damaged me very deeply I done a session of reiki today which was advised to me and I felt it helped a lot thanks for the replys and help .

[paulk23]

On 9/13/2024 at 5:01 AM, KimMk said:

 

First of all, what you’re feeling is not permanent. It is withdrawal.
What dose were you on before you stopped??

 

 I’m tapering effexor and you really need to throw away the calendar and do a slowwww hyperbolic taper. Have you read up on hyperbolic tapering??

 

I’ve successfully reinstated effexor twice after coming fully off. The sooner the reinstatement the better the chance of not having an adverse reaction.

 

[paulk23]

Sorry to post again but I have a question on neck pain since stopping my neck has frozen solid is this also a common withdrawal symptom I haven't read it mentioned here ,if I try to get angry or excited my neck and back of head just seem to seize completely again sorry if I am asking to many questions this process has just been so terrifying.

[KimMk]

14 hours ago, paulk23 said:

Sorry to post again but I have a question on neck pain since stopping my neck has frozen solid is this also a common withdrawal symptom I haven't read it mentioned here ,if I try to get angry or excited my neck and back of head just seem to seize completely again sorry if I am asking to many questions this process has just been so terrifying.

I’m not a physician but it sounds like it could be something called dystonia. 
 

The SERT occupancy at 6mg is still pretty high for effexor. If it becomes intolerable, you could reinstate a few beads (like five)  and then taper again when you’re stable. 

[6Eggs]

On 9/14/2024 at 11:56 PM, paulk23 said:

Sorry to post again but I have a question on neck pain since stopping my neck has frozen solid is this also a common withdrawal symptom I haven't read it mentioned here ,if I try to get angry or excited my neck and back of head just seem to seize completely again sorry if I am asking to many questions this process has just been so terrifying.

I've had something similar.  Like muscle twinges and muscular stiffness/tearing sensation around the joints, and worst around my lumbar. I do get it in my neck too pretty often.  I have weird incomplete muscular control during movement, quads, lumbar, feet, upper forearms and front of the shoulder joints.  These have actually let to small but very painful long lasting muscle injuries right where the muscles start to transition to tendons.  Some of these injuries have taken more than a year to mostly heal.  So I have to be careful when doing physical stuff as my muscles are not timing/coordinating correctly which end up in these injuries at the drop of a hat.  But yeah I do get those whole torso deep muscular lock ups you are talking about, my neck and shoulders included, they aren't just random one here and there, but usually wide spread episodes involving lots of areas.

When I first tried to taper off in 2021, I had symptoms of parkinsonism and my quads on my legs also would only contract the ends of the muscles where the tendons started, you could see it physically and thus I lost 80% of my leg power, so it couldn't get back up if I crouched down say in the shower. Getting up put so much strain on the only small amount of muscle activating that they immediately got strain injuries. So My legs were painfully sore for 2 weeks like I had done a 200kg leg press first go at the gym not having gone to the gym in years type of ordeal.  I had stiffness, tremor, incoordination, the more I tried to steady my hands and arms and keep them from shaking, the worse the tremor.  Truly awful stuff.

I still have some of these symptoms now, the muscular joint area issues, occasional muscle locking/twinging and the weakness and unsteadiness in my legs has returned in the last 2 months after more 2 year or more of not having that symptom.  Thankfully the hand coordination and tremors are 99.99% gone. I even rarely can get a little jelly jittery feeling in my thumbs after doing a lot of physical stuff with them but it resolved quickly. I had that symptom long before I ever tried to taper when the drugs were already causing adverse effects, and it's now far far better than even then.

I still get that weird ticklish restless leg syndrome feeling in my body, arms, face and hands on occasion but it never results in the need to move like the RLS does even though it's the same feeling. I only have true RLS like symptoms in my calves which existed before the meds, but it has continued to improve all the time and I only usually get it for a few min upon waking up in the early stages of sleep. Rarely get it falling asleep now which is great. That drove me insane when it was bad, the only way to stop it was to do a rough massage on my calves, that worked every time.

[Celeste1990]

Does anyone know how long the acute phase normally lasts? I’m 6 months after my adverse reaction and I’m still as bad as I was at the very beginning. No windows. No changes even really in my symptoms. Just the same symptoms, 24/7. 

[Tom37]

Hello,

 

Not sure if any long termers are lurking around.

 

My wave pattern seems to have changed the longer wd has gone on. I seem to go for 5/6 months at baseline which means I can generally live an almost full life. Still not 100 percent but good enough to live. But my waves seem to now go for 2 or 3 months but at a lesser intensity. The have an acute stage at the start for 3 or 4 days then settle in to a long wave. I can still function and work and look after myself etc but everything else is on hold. Definitely not a fun time.

 

I’m coming up three weeks in current one and no sign of it easing. No morphing of symptoms either yet, everything just the same.

Just wondering if anyone has experienced this pattern??

[6Eggs]

I didn't really have an acute phase, I had some WD symptoms but they were far more mild to anything I have now and were nearly all typical psychiatric symptoms. I only had burning/discomfort pain in my genitals/perineal come and go during the acute stage if you want to call it that.

The real hell that abruptly came out of nowhere happened about 3 months later for the first drug.

Then about 5 months later for the last drug, this one had severe adverse reactions each day I took the dose right at the end of taper, pretty bad WD, but far far worse ADR each day, I couldn't stabilise as taking the drug was pysically causing far worse issues than any of the WD symptoms.  So I CT at 10mg instead of the 5mg I planned. The receptor occupancy I had data on suggested 6%, so it wasn't anywhere near as dangerous as many other drugs.  I had virtually 0 acute WD symptoms, I had releif from the daily ADRs. 

However, the real WD symptoms kicked in 5 months later and I am somewhat certain I am now at the platuea stage and stabilization even though the symptoms are still very bad, but at least now they are most constant with far less and much more mild extremes of both ends. 

This burning pain and discomfort I mentioned.  I've had it again with this 2nd drug, but this time it wasn't imedially and resolved mostly fairly quickly after 6 months like the first drug did, but rather the pain was delayed that 5 months and has been going on for 6 months already.  So it was much more slower to come on, worse and for longer on the 2nd drug.  The first drug I was on 2.5 years not including the 18 month taper, and something like 7 years not including the taper for the 2nd/last drug. 

So the time you spent on the drug seems to have a great influence on WD, at least in my case, onset delay, duration and intensity regardless of drug strength (affinity and occupancy) and even half life.  Both drugs I was on where on opposite ends of that and the worse one by orders of magnitude, was the one that WD came on quicker and improved fastest, the "weak" drug was horrendous and is the one I am struggling the worst with in terms of all the above mentioned, and I am sure the time I was on them is the greatest factor.

In the past I quit many meds with no WD at all, all were short to medium term, few weeks to max 6 months. I had ADRs to most, but had no WD that I recall.

The only other time I had WD is from paxil (took it for probably a year) and it was short lived WD, about 3-4 days iirc back when I was 14 I think.  The other is from chronic and excessive coffee, WD hit hard! and lasted like 1-2 weeks of severe migraines, headaches and feeling totally out of it and like my other meds that caused WD, restarting does absolutely nothing to relieve symptoms, I just have to stop and let WD run it's course.